I agree, but don't blame that on metal heads, it was the east coast 2nd wave hardcore scene that brought all that jock shit about- not metal..when you have bands of skin head/thug/criminal NY types on stage promoting racism and gang mentality- the crowd follows suit, and soon the whole scene looks like a frat party or high school pep rally/ jail playground..it wasn't metal it was 2nd wave hardcore, which is not and will never be true punk..
deathtokoalas
i think you're contradicting yourself without realizing it. you're right that second wave hardcore wasn't punk; you're wrong that second wave hardcore wasn't metal. it had every attitude associated with metal, it was marketed to metal fans by metal labels and it didn't even sound like punk anymore. further, it's lineal descendants have realized this and integrated the term metal into their marketing - "nu metal", then "metalcore". i refuse to even call second wave hardcore "hardcore", or their fans "hardcore kids" (whatever their age). it's metal, and they're metalheads.
real hardcore mostly morphed into grunge and then split off into noise & etc.
Mike Mike
Eh, I see what you're saying but that second wave NYHC and east coast hardcore was 3 chord Black Flag influenced for the most part. It wasn't really progressive enough in anyway to hear metal influences in it, although I guess you could say it was also Motorhead inspired. The mentality at those shows was never seen at any metal show I've ever been to..gangs, fights, nazism, just really ignorant behavior all over the place. The thrash metal bands of this time integrated the sounds of Priest, Sabbath, and Maiden into their sound..The second wave hardcore groups were kind of just Black Flag with less creativity and more stupidity...(says a lot because Rollins era Black Flag was pretty stupid as well)
deathtokoalas
see, i've never heard much of it like that. it's always sounded to me like metalheads that can't play. metallica without the guitar and drum solos, sort of thing; what i hear is a lot of recycled thrash riffs, and not much ripping on black flag or bad brains. and, while i wasn't there, i'm of the understanding that the nazi bullshit came out of a common root as satanic black metal, that it came out of all that early 80s metal that glorifies white, northern europeans as this viking super-race that worshiped satan.
Mike Mike
There was definitely the nazi element in black metal as well, and while there's no excuse for hardcore nazism, at least the black metal bands usually did it with some knowledge of viking and pagan roots, and not all of those bands had nazi lyrics..The 2nd wave hardcore bands and mostly their fans (more so than the bands themselves) brought an 8th grade drop out gang themed, extremely ignorant nazi mentality to the scene. That black metal scene you speak of was so far from here (Norway mostly) and I don't even believe a lot of those bands played many live shows.
deathtokoalas
i don't mean to suggest the norwegian stuff was a direct influence on nyhc, though, and i don't mean to ignorantly directly label anything as nazi (because i just don't know enough about it, and don't really care to). but i think the norwegian church burning nonsense actually post-dates nyhc by a good margin. i think the earlier viking/satan stuff was mostly british, was rarely explicitly nazi (although was between the lines) and itself probably developed out of "immigrant song". i was more trying to get across the idea that black metal and nyhc shared a common influence in early 80s satanic viking metal, because i think that's where the bullshit in the hardcore scene ultimately came from.
Mike Mike
You could be right and it's wrong to generalize any scene as "Nazi" as you pointed out. Norwegian black metal definitely post dates NYHC by about a decade as well. First wave black metal had it's roots in stuff like Bathory, Celtic Frost and Venom (kind like thrash with satanic lyrics, sloppy playing) That stuff probably did influence some 2nd wave hardcore, although it's tough to say because it was really all happening at the same time. Agnostic Front came out very early along, I believe it was 83 or 84, the first wave of black metal hit a little earlier , and so did the early thrash metal releases. All pretty much happened rather quickly, tough to say what exactly influenced what.
Attila the Humble
Don't you like us koalas? :(
deathtokoalas
your despicable cuteness is subversive and must be eradicated for the well being of all other life forms in the galaxy.
