post-metal wiki entry:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Post-metal#this_is_a_genre.2C_but_the_article_doesn.27t_understand_it)
this is "original research", so, following my other recent additions, i'm going to just throw a section in here and let other people work it out. i'll point out, though, that i lived through the popularization of post-rock while living in ottawa (halfway between montreal and toronto) in the late 90s and early 00s.
while i'm not denying the existence of the whole sludge/grind thing, i don't think that post-metal (as we understand the term) is properly derived from it - or at least not entirely. the way i remember it is that post-metal was simply a heavier variant of post-rock. that is to say that a lot of kids into various types of hardcore listened to a bunch of gybe! records and got a bunch of ideas from it. then, the kids that were into post-rock picked up on it, largely as a reaction to the predictability of post-rock during the period. it was a breath of fresh air within the onset of a kind of monotony. post-metal consequently has a parallel development with a clade of electronic post-rock acts (65daysofstatic, god is an astronaut, pivot) that likewise developed out of a kind of boredom with the rules of post-rock.
what does that have to do with reinventing metal? it doesn't have anything to do with that at all. now, maybe there's a kind of thinking centered around the development of black and doom metal that does go through this process of reinvention. i don't really know a lot about black metal. if such a process happened, it was very distinct from what post-metal (as we know it) was.
the pelican quote in the article gets it right. what that means is that the stylistic origins section should include something about (post-)hardcore, and maybe remove shoegazing as redundant - we don't need both gaze and post-rock, as the gaze influences comes in *via* the post-rock one. you can note that post-rock lists shoegaze in it's origin section. it also explains why so many people are arguing about this: they're conflating two very different things that in reality had only a very small overlap in listenership. the first is the rise of a new kind of metal, from grind through to black. while that might conform best to the philosophical idea underlying "post-metal", nobody that listens to it thinks of it like that, and so the article strikes those people as silly. the second refers to a desire by hardcore kids to give symphonic post-rock a bit of a deeper kick, which was grasped on to mostly by hardcore kids and post-rock fans.
so, this page shouldn't be deleted, but it should be separated into these two different ideas, one derived from the merger of post-rock and hardcore and the other from the reinvention of metal. stated bluntly, "post-metal" as we know it is just "post rock with riffs", while the sludge and black streams of metal went through a reinvention that could more fairly be term "post metal". the colloquial usage does NOT conform to this.
Wednesday, February 5, 2014
deathtokoalas
i have to admit that this does what it does well. it's just that post-metal was fresh around '05, as a way to inject a bit of kick into a dying sound (post-rock). i mean, pelican hasn't released a record this good in years. if anything, it's annoying: i realize it's high quality, but, because i already understand it, it offers no challenges, and i consequently can't appreciate it. maybe, if i went through one of those memory removal procedures? but, then i'd probably just fall in love with pelican a second time. enjoy it, kids, but realize it's the tip of something...
Scott Millman
Winner of most pretentious comment award
deathtokoalas
if you think that it's pretentious, you've been taken for a ride...
oriondrums2
Dude you comment pretentious comments all the time. I remember you giving your elitist critiquing on Calculating Infinity.
deathtokoalas
actually, that was misunderstood sarcasm, as well.
as an aside, there's an incredible irony in the way that the word 'pretentious' is colloquially used, which is to mean "displaying a greater level of intelligence than a toddler". it's really right out of the film "idiocracy".
pretentious has the same root as the word pretend. what the word actually means is to falsely project a greater understanding of something than one actually has, in the hopes that an audience buys it. an example of pretentiousness would be jimmy page playing pentatonic scales on a sitar.
even if i were to strip out the sarcasm, the above post would not be an example of pretension. it's just an example of somebody that is literate.
oriondrums2
Alright fine, the word is elitist. I sound a bit harsh when I say this, but you kind of just sound like a dick with your word choice and all that.
deathtokoalas
well, yeah. one doesn't post smarmy, sarcastic comments all over youtube looking to get flowers sent in the mail. the popular term is "trolling".
Amadeahi
I agree with you to an extent (original comment). I do think that post-rock doesn't have a very high ceiling anymore. But, and I don't want to be presumptuous here, there are good bands that fit into post metal(more like djent) that you didn't address. I don't know if you were including djent into your original statement: "it's just that post-metal was fresh around '05, as a way to inject a bit of kick into a dying sound (post-rock)." because if not there are some beautiful musicians out there. maybe try 'sithu aye' or animals as leaders', 'wide eyes'. again, im not trying to be rude or anything I just wanted to know if you meant post rock or instrumental metal
deathtokoalas
i've seen the term djent jump up here and there without being able to find a good definition of it; there probably isn't one. it almost looks consciously constructed to be too silly to mean anything. isn't that what rick moranis said in ghostbusters?
animals as leaders is something i've enjoyed, but i'm a guitar player, so it's easy to figure that out. i suppose there's some patterns, but all music has patterns. it's not post-metal, or in any way from it. it's really coming more from something like alan holdsworth. it's jazz...
the post-metal sound is quite distinct from that, in it's slow, prodding crawls to climaxes, and it's more ambient low points.
that's not to say i think it's impossible to build on. it's to say that this isn't building on it.
something that i do think took the post-metal thing to a really interesting place was the first indricothere disc, but that itself was almost ten years ago.
but, then again, i don't habitually listen to metal. nor is any of this really metal in any meaningful sense. it's all derived from obtuse forms of punk rock, which is what i think has been more interesting over the last ten years.
Pavel Rogala
It's a sad day when putting thought into constructing one's sentences and carefully choosing one's words translates into being a dick.
Conspiracy Cat
What would you consider that isn't already derivative? Just curious. I find myself having similar thoughts. I love the post-metal and post-rock genre. I think it's incredibly fun/relaxing music, but it does little to spark creative interest.
deathtokoalas
that's a question that's hard to answer. it's very broad.
one of the tricks i use to find unusual music is searching google for unusual search terms. example: i was hoping to find something that mixed progressive rock with punk rock, so i searched for it and came across a band called cardiacs, who were once labelled "pronk".
another good idea to find new things is to keep an eye on local show listings, although that only works if you live in an urban area. i stumbled upon the most recent melt banana disc (amongst countless other things) that way, which is a very interesting record that i wouldn't have otherwise listened to.
you could also try searching for bands together and see if anybody has name dropped them in the same review. i found indricothere doing something like that....
Conspiracy Cat
Good points. I've found quite a few good punk bands from Jonah Raydio (podcast). That said, it's still rare to come across a "new" or "unique" sound. And of course, when you do, assuming it's good, there will be more bands to follow. Good thing in the beginning as it just means more quality tunes, but a decade down the road we will be in the same boat again.
To elaborate on Djent, I wouldn't consider it a genre. It's more of a play style or technique characterized by chuggy guitar distortion, created with an emphasis on the middle frequencies and almost none in the low end. The bass guitar fills the low end in. Technically it's identified by the rhythm guitar(s) through stacatto playing, zero attack, and very low release and sustain. It's typically used in prog-rock and it's derivatives.
deathtokoalas
regarding the ghostbusters reference, i had djent mixed up with zeuhl. whatever. i know i like jazz fusion, and i know i tend to be more picky with progressive rock, and that's enough to describe what i've heard.
i think that it's less that it's rare to find people doing something unique and more that it's hard to define what that actually means, because a lot of it has to do with time and space and listening background. a lot of what i'm doing in these comments reduces to a type of listener education. somebody that hasn't heard pelican, or is too young to remember them, is going to react differently to this than somebody that spent five years listening to them and watching them play.
i mean, there's a level of objectivity in the comparisons, but that doesn't matter if people are unaware of them. in the end, nothing exists in isolation. i'm only going to say something if it's really blatant.
that melt banana disc would have probably been accused of ripping on ministry if it was released in 1992. but, today it's virtually without parallel, and a lot of younger people aren't going to get that or really even care. they're going to think it sounds more like deerhoof.
it works the other way, too. i've been listening to a lot of white lung, lately, which is a sort of a riot grrrl act. but, not really. it's far more melodic than that, and has a big skate punk feel to it. it would have probably been considered pretty unique in the mid 90s because it's not really like anything else that came out of the riot grrrl movement, but people today pull out a few genre markers and decide it's retro.
i have to admit that this does what it does well. it's just that post-metal was fresh around '05, as a way to inject a bit of kick into a dying sound (post-rock). i mean, pelican hasn't released a record this good in years. if anything, it's annoying: i realize it's high quality, but, because i already understand it, it offers no challenges, and i consequently can't appreciate it. maybe, if i went through one of those memory removal procedures? but, then i'd probably just fall in love with pelican a second time. enjoy it, kids, but realize it's the tip of something...
Scott Millman
Winner of most pretentious comment award
deathtokoalas
if you think that it's pretentious, you've been taken for a ride...
oriondrums2
Dude you comment pretentious comments all the time. I remember you giving your elitist critiquing on Calculating Infinity.
deathtokoalas
actually, that was misunderstood sarcasm, as well.
as an aside, there's an incredible irony in the way that the word 'pretentious' is colloquially used, which is to mean "displaying a greater level of intelligence than a toddler". it's really right out of the film "idiocracy".
pretentious has the same root as the word pretend. what the word actually means is to falsely project a greater understanding of something than one actually has, in the hopes that an audience buys it. an example of pretentiousness would be jimmy page playing pentatonic scales on a sitar.
even if i were to strip out the sarcasm, the above post would not be an example of pretension. it's just an example of somebody that is literate.
oriondrums2
Alright fine, the word is elitist. I sound a bit harsh when I say this, but you kind of just sound like a dick with your word choice and all that.
deathtokoalas
well, yeah. one doesn't post smarmy, sarcastic comments all over youtube looking to get flowers sent in the mail. the popular term is "trolling".
Amadeahi
I agree with you to an extent (original comment). I do think that post-rock doesn't have a very high ceiling anymore. But, and I don't want to be presumptuous here, there are good bands that fit into post metal(more like djent) that you didn't address. I don't know if you were including djent into your original statement: "it's just that post-metal was fresh around '05, as a way to inject a bit of kick into a dying sound (post-rock)." because if not there are some beautiful musicians out there. maybe try 'sithu aye' or animals as leaders', 'wide eyes'. again, im not trying to be rude or anything I just wanted to know if you meant post rock or instrumental metal
deathtokoalas
i've seen the term djent jump up here and there without being able to find a good definition of it; there probably isn't one. it almost looks consciously constructed to be too silly to mean anything. isn't that what rick moranis said in ghostbusters?
animals as leaders is something i've enjoyed, but i'm a guitar player, so it's easy to figure that out. i suppose there's some patterns, but all music has patterns. it's not post-metal, or in any way from it. it's really coming more from something like alan holdsworth. it's jazz...
the post-metal sound is quite distinct from that, in it's slow, prodding crawls to climaxes, and it's more ambient low points.
that's not to say i think it's impossible to build on. it's to say that this isn't building on it.
something that i do think took the post-metal thing to a really interesting place was the first indricothere disc, but that itself was almost ten years ago.
but, then again, i don't habitually listen to metal. nor is any of this really metal in any meaningful sense. it's all derived from obtuse forms of punk rock, which is what i think has been more interesting over the last ten years.
Pavel Rogala
It's a sad day when putting thought into constructing one's sentences and carefully choosing one's words translates into being a dick.
Conspiracy Cat
What would you consider that isn't already derivative? Just curious. I find myself having similar thoughts. I love the post-metal and post-rock genre. I think it's incredibly fun/relaxing music, but it does little to spark creative interest.
deathtokoalas
that's a question that's hard to answer. it's very broad.
one of the tricks i use to find unusual music is searching google for unusual search terms. example: i was hoping to find something that mixed progressive rock with punk rock, so i searched for it and came across a band called cardiacs, who were once labelled "pronk".
another good idea to find new things is to keep an eye on local show listings, although that only works if you live in an urban area. i stumbled upon the most recent melt banana disc (amongst countless other things) that way, which is a very interesting record that i wouldn't have otherwise listened to.
you could also try searching for bands together and see if anybody has name dropped them in the same review. i found indricothere doing something like that....
Conspiracy Cat
Good points. I've found quite a few good punk bands from Jonah Raydio (podcast). That said, it's still rare to come across a "new" or "unique" sound. And of course, when you do, assuming it's good, there will be more bands to follow. Good thing in the beginning as it just means more quality tunes, but a decade down the road we will be in the same boat again.
To elaborate on Djent, I wouldn't consider it a genre. It's more of a play style or technique characterized by chuggy guitar distortion, created with an emphasis on the middle frequencies and almost none in the low end. The bass guitar fills the low end in. Technically it's identified by the rhythm guitar(s) through stacatto playing, zero attack, and very low release and sustain. It's typically used in prog-rock and it's derivatives.
deathtokoalas
regarding the ghostbusters reference, i had djent mixed up with zeuhl. whatever. i know i like jazz fusion, and i know i tend to be more picky with progressive rock, and that's enough to describe what i've heard.
i think that it's less that it's rare to find people doing something unique and more that it's hard to define what that actually means, because a lot of it has to do with time and space and listening background. a lot of what i'm doing in these comments reduces to a type of listener education. somebody that hasn't heard pelican, or is too young to remember them, is going to react differently to this than somebody that spent five years listening to them and watching them play.
i mean, there's a level of objectivity in the comparisons, but that doesn't matter if people are unaware of them. in the end, nothing exists in isolation. i'm only going to say something if it's really blatant.
that melt banana disc would have probably been accused of ripping on ministry if it was released in 1992. but, today it's virtually without parallel, and a lot of younger people aren't going to get that or really even care. they're going to think it sounds more like deerhoof.
it works the other way, too. i've been listening to a lot of white lung, lately, which is a sort of a riot grrrl act. but, not really. it's far more melodic than that, and has a big skate punk feel to it. it would have probably been considered pretty unique in the mid 90s because it's not really like anything else that came out of the riot grrrl movement, but people today pull out a few genre markers and decide it's retro.
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