Saturday, June 14, 2014
deathtokoalas
isn't it obvious that the cub is too small to offer much of a meal, but could act as a trojan horse to catch a bigger one? lions normally hunt in packs. if it's solitary, how is the lion supposed to catch a big meal? it needs a better trick. as soon as the cub gets close to the herd, it tries to ambush....
i'm a little skeptical about lions being empathetic, but i'm comfortable with the idea that they're very sneaky and very smart.
Alastair Leith
You look pretty miserable too :-)
deathtokoalas
you know, i get a comment on that almost every day. it's a shot i took when hungover, and uploaded because it's the last thing people expect to see in a profile pic nowadays.
Alastair Leith
Winning! And why do you hate koalas?
deathtokoalas
clearly, it's their nefarious level of cuteness.
Jason P
That's exactly what I thought, too. The lion was using the baby as bait to find bigger meals -- the baby was just too small for it to satisfy.
Rob Scha Nay Nay
Good idea but it doesnt seem so. Not all nature needs purpose
deathtokoalas
it's not about purpose in some grander scheme of things, it's about understanding specific behaviour in the specific circumstance. lions cannot hunt large prey by themselves. it follows that she has no choice but to come up with a different tactic.
lions aren't the best at chasing things. instead, they rely on ambushing. one lion will sneak up behind the group of ungulates, startling it to run directly towards another; they try to manipulate their prey to run towards them, rather than chase them down and only chase when the ambush fails. they're really good at using the landscape to help them with this, and good at positioning themselves to take advantage of angles. i don't suspect they're doing the geometry mathematically, but they seem to get it intuitively. when lions are not able to hunt in packs, they're forced to rely on easier and smaller prey, like warthogs, or go after the old and young. if you think about it, the way they hunt is essentially herding behaviour, but with a kill at the end of it.
it's not that big a jump to go from ambushing the ungulates to using a baby to get close to them. i mean, it's an ambush tactic, either way. both are means to get close to the prey. i agree this appears to be novel behvaiour, but the jump in abstraction of thought is really not high, given what we already know about them.
further, as i mentioned previously, the video clearly demonstrates that this is what the lion is doing: it's allowing the calf to get close to the herd, then stalking around it. they didn't observe the tactic as successful, but the behaviour demonstrated is really blatant from the images in the film.
Rob Scha Nay Nay
I meant a purpose with respect to its survivability. It could just be a motherly glitch its CNS that has no bearing on its evolutionary success.
deathtokoalas
well, it could be, but the evidence doesn't seem to suggest that.
i just need to point out that i realize the film suggests the lion caught an antelope on her own, but this seems to be a mistake. the longer version suggests she ate a warthog. my best guess on that is that the calf is an antelope, and the speaker had a mental freeze.
it is very difficult for a lone lioness to catch a grown antelope, and warthogs make up the core diet of single lions. she'd have to be an exceptional hunter to pull off that feat, which is clearly not the case. that's why they hunt in packs.
Alex F
HOLY SHIT I just clicked on your channel. I'm scared now.
deathtokoalas
i think more people should click on my channel, but there's really no reason to be afraid.
unless you're a scaredy-cat...
simone4447
i think the lioness was hunting then fail yet the baby live, now the lioness have no idea what to do so she just stay with the cub. after-all she was raised by humans so she wasn't really trained by her mother to hunt correctly ...
deathtokoalas
where did you get the information that the lioness was raised by humans? if true, it's kind of a fail that the doc didn't mention it, and i need to modify my opinion. everything in the doc suggests that this is a wild lioness. it even hypothesizes that she may have been separated from her pride.
Cari Schumann
but lions often eat babies or sick or elderly prey so to say the baby was not satisfying meal can't be right lions are opportunistic hunters they eat what they can it's obvious the lion was nurturing the baby she could have eaten at anytime
deathtokoalas
lions will eat a baby as a snack if they know they can eat a real meal later. if they know they can't, it stands to reason that they might try a different tactic.
it wasn't nurturing it, either, it was starving it...
think of it like this: you might fry up a minnow as a delicacy (just go with it) if you know there's a supermarket near by. but, if you know you're going to be out in the wilderness for a while, you'd realize it makes more sense to use that minnow as bait to catch a bigger fish.
the lion is quite clearly stalking the larger animals when they go to investigate the calf. it didn't work, but it's obvious that it's what it was doing.
DHD9
your giving lions too much credit, I can't explain this, but I watch bog cat dairies and lionsll eat anything, including lion cubs. They don't care about size. And it let the calf feed so it wasn't deliberately starving it
deathtokoalas
when lions eat lion cubs, it's a territorial and genetic thing. there's a number of animals that they will kill and not eat - most notably cheetahs, who they seem to not want around for competitive reasons. they'll just storm a cheetah family, kill the babies and walk off. it seems they're killing them to avoid competition, but i don't think anybody really understands why they don't bother eating them on top of it.
i don't think the lion is starving the cub on purpose, either - it ultimately is going to want it to survive long enough to get close to the larger one. letting it close enough to feed, and taking a run during the distraction, is the whole point.
kristian perez
this theory makes no sense, how does the presence of a baby make others come closer ? if anyhting the presence of the lioness would drive off any other orix (forgive my spelling)
that and when the lioness did find a group she went straight for the baby rather than the other orix,
deathtokoalas
a mother oryx will be attracted to a calf in need because it does have motherly instincts towards it. they'll even try and protect their offspring from attack, and can sometimes succeed. so, if the lioness places the baby oryx just a little away from the herd, it will attract the mother away, where the lioness can more easily ambush. if you watch the video (or the longer version, i don't remember) again, you'll see that this is what happens - except that the mother oryx didn't take the bait long enough to get into pouncing range.
again, you have to realize that lions are very inefficient hunters when left alone. they rely heavily on their pack to hunt. the reason the lioness doesn't go straight for the larger antelopes is that it knows it can't catch them.
in packs, lions are apex predators and probably the most ferocious and deadly creatures on the planet. alone, they're forced to compete with other mid-level carnivores like jackals and cheetahs for much smaller prey.
kristian perez
if i recall, wasnt the baby oryx the reason for it being alone in the first place ? (other lions kept trying to kill it)
deathtokoalas
no.
simone4447
i like your idea of the lioness using the baby to get closer to prey but when the park guards tried feeding her meat to stop them from starving, the lioness didnt take it. If that was her intent to use the baby it must of change while they were together or she did want meat while being with the baby. idk but this wouldnt have happened if the lioness pride wasnt killed when she was young.
deathtokoalas
i think there's a lot of reasons why the lioness may or may not have taken possibly unsafe meat from humans and it's a big jump to deduce it had anything to do with the baby antelope.
isn't it obvious that the cub is too small to offer much of a meal, but could act as a trojan horse to catch a bigger one? lions normally hunt in packs. if it's solitary, how is the lion supposed to catch a big meal? it needs a better trick. as soon as the cub gets close to the herd, it tries to ambush....
i'm a little skeptical about lions being empathetic, but i'm comfortable with the idea that they're very sneaky and very smart.
Alastair Leith
You look pretty miserable too :-)
deathtokoalas
you know, i get a comment on that almost every day. it's a shot i took when hungover, and uploaded because it's the last thing people expect to see in a profile pic nowadays.
Alastair Leith
Winning! And why do you hate koalas?
deathtokoalas
clearly, it's their nefarious level of cuteness.
Jason P
That's exactly what I thought, too. The lion was using the baby as bait to find bigger meals -- the baby was just too small for it to satisfy.
Rob Scha Nay Nay
Good idea but it doesnt seem so. Not all nature needs purpose
deathtokoalas
it's not about purpose in some grander scheme of things, it's about understanding specific behaviour in the specific circumstance. lions cannot hunt large prey by themselves. it follows that she has no choice but to come up with a different tactic.
lions aren't the best at chasing things. instead, they rely on ambushing. one lion will sneak up behind the group of ungulates, startling it to run directly towards another; they try to manipulate their prey to run towards them, rather than chase them down and only chase when the ambush fails. they're really good at using the landscape to help them with this, and good at positioning themselves to take advantage of angles. i don't suspect they're doing the geometry mathematically, but they seem to get it intuitively. when lions are not able to hunt in packs, they're forced to rely on easier and smaller prey, like warthogs, or go after the old and young. if you think about it, the way they hunt is essentially herding behaviour, but with a kill at the end of it.
it's not that big a jump to go from ambushing the ungulates to using a baby to get close to them. i mean, it's an ambush tactic, either way. both are means to get close to the prey. i agree this appears to be novel behvaiour, but the jump in abstraction of thought is really not high, given what we already know about them.
further, as i mentioned previously, the video clearly demonstrates that this is what the lion is doing: it's allowing the calf to get close to the herd, then stalking around it. they didn't observe the tactic as successful, but the behaviour demonstrated is really blatant from the images in the film.
Rob Scha Nay Nay
I meant a purpose with respect to its survivability. It could just be a motherly glitch its CNS that has no bearing on its evolutionary success.
deathtokoalas
well, it could be, but the evidence doesn't seem to suggest that.
i just need to point out that i realize the film suggests the lion caught an antelope on her own, but this seems to be a mistake. the longer version suggests she ate a warthog. my best guess on that is that the calf is an antelope, and the speaker had a mental freeze.
it is very difficult for a lone lioness to catch a grown antelope, and warthogs make up the core diet of single lions. she'd have to be an exceptional hunter to pull off that feat, which is clearly not the case. that's why they hunt in packs.
Alex F
HOLY SHIT I just clicked on your channel. I'm scared now.
deathtokoalas
i think more people should click on my channel, but there's really no reason to be afraid.
unless you're a scaredy-cat...
simone4447
i think the lioness was hunting then fail yet the baby live, now the lioness have no idea what to do so she just stay with the cub. after-all she was raised by humans so she wasn't really trained by her mother to hunt correctly ...
deathtokoalas
where did you get the information that the lioness was raised by humans? if true, it's kind of a fail that the doc didn't mention it, and i need to modify my opinion. everything in the doc suggests that this is a wild lioness. it even hypothesizes that she may have been separated from her pride.
Cari Schumann
but lions often eat babies or sick or elderly prey so to say the baby was not satisfying meal can't be right lions are opportunistic hunters they eat what they can it's obvious the lion was nurturing the baby she could have eaten at anytime
deathtokoalas
lions will eat a baby as a snack if they know they can eat a real meal later. if they know they can't, it stands to reason that they might try a different tactic.
it wasn't nurturing it, either, it was starving it...
think of it like this: you might fry up a minnow as a delicacy (just go with it) if you know there's a supermarket near by. but, if you know you're going to be out in the wilderness for a while, you'd realize it makes more sense to use that minnow as bait to catch a bigger fish.
the lion is quite clearly stalking the larger animals when they go to investigate the calf. it didn't work, but it's obvious that it's what it was doing.
DHD9
your giving lions too much credit, I can't explain this, but I watch bog cat dairies and lionsll eat anything, including lion cubs. They don't care about size. And it let the calf feed so it wasn't deliberately starving it
deathtokoalas
when lions eat lion cubs, it's a territorial and genetic thing. there's a number of animals that they will kill and not eat - most notably cheetahs, who they seem to not want around for competitive reasons. they'll just storm a cheetah family, kill the babies and walk off. it seems they're killing them to avoid competition, but i don't think anybody really understands why they don't bother eating them on top of it.
i don't think the lion is starving the cub on purpose, either - it ultimately is going to want it to survive long enough to get close to the larger one. letting it close enough to feed, and taking a run during the distraction, is the whole point.
kristian perez
this theory makes no sense, how does the presence of a baby make others come closer ? if anyhting the presence of the lioness would drive off any other orix (forgive my spelling)
that and when the lioness did find a group she went straight for the baby rather than the other orix,
deathtokoalas
a mother oryx will be attracted to a calf in need because it does have motherly instincts towards it. they'll even try and protect their offspring from attack, and can sometimes succeed. so, if the lioness places the baby oryx just a little away from the herd, it will attract the mother away, where the lioness can more easily ambush. if you watch the video (or the longer version, i don't remember) again, you'll see that this is what happens - except that the mother oryx didn't take the bait long enough to get into pouncing range.
again, you have to realize that lions are very inefficient hunters when left alone. they rely heavily on their pack to hunt. the reason the lioness doesn't go straight for the larger antelopes is that it knows it can't catch them.
in packs, lions are apex predators and probably the most ferocious and deadly creatures on the planet. alone, they're forced to compete with other mid-level carnivores like jackals and cheetahs for much smaller prey.
kristian perez
if i recall, wasnt the baby oryx the reason for it being alone in the first place ? (other lions kept trying to kill it)
deathtokoalas
no.
simone4447
i like your idea of the lioness using the baby to get closer to prey but when the park guards tried feeding her meat to stop them from starving, the lioness didnt take it. If that was her intent to use the baby it must of change while they were together or she did want meat while being with the baby. idk but this wouldnt have happened if the lioness pride wasnt killed when she was young.
deathtokoalas
i think there's a lot of reasons why the lioness may or may not have taken possibly unsafe meat from humans and it's a big jump to deduce it had anything to do with the baby antelope.
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