i'm done with rachmaninov for the night....
Thursday, March 27, 2014
actually, rachmaninov and angst go well together. under 15, and it's just notes on a screen. but a little older than that is probably the ideal age to get this right.
she's hitting the keys with sufficient force. that's the big thing. and it's a russian thing, consistently. her western counterparts want to over-intellectualize and turn it into some dainty prance, rather than the noisy protopunk classic that it is.
i'm mildly relieved. i suppose that if we end up on the other side of some curtain, we can still rely on the former soviet states (and satellites) to play the russian classics for us properly, without having to endure westerners butchering them.
she's hitting the keys with sufficient force. that's the big thing. and it's a russian thing, consistently. her western counterparts want to over-intellectualize and turn it into some dainty prance, rather than the noisy protopunk classic that it is.
i'm mildly relieved. i suppose that if we end up on the other side of some curtain, we can still rely on the former soviet states (and satellites) to play the russian classics for us properly, without having to endure westerners butchering them.
i have a moderately recent american version and a modded russian version designed for smashing pumpkins fans (creamy dreamer) and what i've found is that the russian muff seems to be designed for better sound at lower volumes. the russian version does sound clearer and more usable here, but that's why. it has to do with the way a muff works. it's supposed to be plugged directly into a tube amp at high volume levels. this test is consequently largely useless.
deathtokoalas
the orchestra sounds good, but she's just not hitting the piano hard enough.
Eleanor Gay
Does she need to pound the keys to mke the music? Maybe for you to hear the music.
deathtokoalas
this particular piece needs to be pounded, yes. bourgeois westerners that want to focus on masturbatory techniques have consistently failed to understand that for close to a hundred years. the russians grasp it properly...
go find a russian recording to hear it bashed out the way it's supposed to be, then come back.
shantihealer
Your right, my friend, she not only underhits the piano but kind of smacks it.
SugarTomAppleRoger
You are joking of course. Few can play with such power as she does.
deathtokoalas
i've pointed out a few performances that have the proper level of aggression. she just doesn't sustain the smashing throughout.
Ricardo Macayo
y tú muerte a los koalas si que sabes de música!
deathtokoalas
i apologize if i've mistranslated, but i think you're asking me why i hate koalas.
the answer is that they're revoltingly cute.
valkhorn
I hear nothing wrong with it. The notes are clear enough, and she plays with finesse - which is very hard to do on this piece, esp. the last movement.
deathtokoalas
see, that's the problem - the finesse. this isn't a technical, subtle piece. it's a banger, meant to be played with all the bourgeois sophistication of "tutti frutti".
anyways, i'm repeating myself. thread closed.
the orchestra sounds good, but she's just not hitting the piano hard enough.
Eleanor Gay
Does she need to pound the keys to mke the music? Maybe for you to hear the music.
deathtokoalas
this particular piece needs to be pounded, yes. bourgeois westerners that want to focus on masturbatory techniques have consistently failed to understand that for close to a hundred years. the russians grasp it properly...
go find a russian recording to hear it bashed out the way it's supposed to be, then come back.
shantihealer
Your right, my friend, she not only underhits the piano but kind of smacks it.
SugarTomAppleRoger
You are joking of course. Few can play with such power as she does.
deathtokoalas
i've pointed out a few performances that have the proper level of aggression. she just doesn't sustain the smashing throughout.
Ricardo Macayo
y tú muerte a los koalas si que sabes de música!
deathtokoalas
i apologize if i've mistranslated, but i think you're asking me why i hate koalas.
the answer is that they're revoltingly cute.
valkhorn
I hear nothing wrong with it. The notes are clear enough, and she plays with finesse - which is very hard to do on this piece, esp. the last movement.
deathtokoalas
see, that's the problem - the finesse. this isn't a technical, subtle piece. it's a banger, meant to be played with all the bourgeois sophistication of "tutti frutti".
anyways, i'm repeating myself. thread closed.
no grit. and, look at 3:23: he's catching his breath? maybe his suit is too tight, and it's restricting his breathing. then he prances through the rest of it like it's some kind of gentle ballet...
this should be beaten down with every ounce of emotional and physical force that can be gathered, as though the police have shown up to steal your last ounce of vodka at 4:53 am and there's nothing you can do about it....
this should be beaten down with every ounce of emotional and physical force that can be gathered, as though the police have shown up to steal your last ounce of vodka at 4:53 am and there's nothing you can do about it....
deathtokoalas
his is worse, he sounds bored through half of it. yeesh...
i have a version by the soviet symphony orchestra that owns everything i've seen online so far, but my discs are packed. i can't even find info online. fucking cold war, getting in the way of what really matters...
Concertos n°2 and n°3 (USSR Symphony Orchestra, feat. conductor: Gennady Provatorov, piano: Victor Eresko).
find that one if you want to hear somebody just bash this out.
XaverScharwenka
Or simply enjoy one of the best versions ever, by Earl Wild... but then again, we all like things differently.
deathtokoalas
earl wild does not sound like a very russian name.
perhaps, you'd like to suggest a wonderful slavic folk version of 'the entertainer' while you're at it? grigorii does gershwin? on balalaika?
fucking hipsters.
1231CarrieCheuk
your profile pic is so frightening
deathtokoalas
that's only because you can't see the muppets dancing around me.
South Texas Piano
Please tell them to save you
deathtokoalas
i believe that request ought to be formed in terms of a question, but you forget that the average muppet is a monster!
12x12surface
Can you post it on YT??
deathtokoalas
i don't have muppet copyright access.
his is worse, he sounds bored through half of it. yeesh...
i have a version by the soviet symphony orchestra that owns everything i've seen online so far, but my discs are packed. i can't even find info online. fucking cold war, getting in the way of what really matters...
Concertos n°2 and n°3 (USSR Symphony Orchestra, feat. conductor: Gennady Provatorov, piano: Victor Eresko).
find that one if you want to hear somebody just bash this out.
XaverScharwenka
Or simply enjoy one of the best versions ever, by Earl Wild... but then again, we all like things differently.
deathtokoalas
earl wild does not sound like a very russian name.
perhaps, you'd like to suggest a wonderful slavic folk version of 'the entertainer' while you're at it? grigorii does gershwin? on balalaika?
fucking hipsters.
1231CarrieCheuk
your profile pic is so frightening
deathtokoalas
that's only because you can't see the muppets dancing around me.
South Texas Piano
Please tell them to save you
deathtokoalas
i believe that request ought to be formed in terms of a question, but you forget that the average muppet is a monster!
12x12surface
Can you post it on YT??
deathtokoalas
i don't have muppet copyright access.
deathtokoalas
i agree with those arguing that she's butchering this. i've always interacted with the piece as a blaring romp, written by an emotionally insecure male that is releasing all of his anger and frustration. she's playing it in a soft and sensuous manner that invites a sultry lounge singer.
the notes are flawless, but there's just no rage or sadness or frustration in it.
deathtokoalas
i mean, maybe she's trying to sex it up. fine.
...but this really needs to be played by 40 year old virgins (ok, i'm exaggerating) to get the maximum feel out of it.
Tim
your understanding of the composer's work is clearly limited if you think anything he wrote is devoid of lust or passion. also, wang's artistic conviction and integrity are what make her performance so remarkable. interpreting a piece in a way that deviates from the norm (or, in this case, your personal preference) is not indicative of poor musicianship.
deathtokoalas
did i not point out that she played the piece flawlessly? but if you understand where the piece is coming from, and all the self-doubt and insecurity attached to it, you'll realize she's completely missing the point.
i mean, if i want to listen to shmaltzy, upper class nonsense i'll go listen to mozart or shostakovich or something. what makes rachmaninov special is the social anxiety in the writing. you take that away, and it's just another delve into aristocratic masturbation. there's plenty of that for those that want it, without needing to ruin that which stands away from it.
i kind of held back a little bit initially, but does she look to you like somebody that has ever experienced the kind of shit rachmaninov went through? young, beautiful, rich. she'd need a brain transplant to get her mind around this. it would be remarkable if she did understand this emotionally, that is as something more than notes on a page - which she does clearly understand quite well.
Vlad
eugh...welcome to music, blessed art it is, where each comes with their own interpretation.
deathtokoalas
this is scored music, not jazz. personal contributions should be kept to an absolute minimum. the performer is a worthless intermediary between my ears and the composer's mind - a necessary evil. i don't care what she thinks.
Vlad
Scored music is still subject to interpretation (not talking about improvisation). Any two people will feel to play the same piece differently
deathtokoalas
completely wrong liberal bullshit. if i want to listen to yuja wang, i'll listen to one of her compositions. i'm here to listen to rachmaninov. the moment she brings her individuality into the process is the moment she completely fucks up. you need to get your head out of this relativistic gallow before it comes down. there are correct and incorrect ways to play a piece.
i don't want to continue this into perpetuity, so i'm just going to be clear about the non-relativistic reality of things before i close off further comments.
there are two ways to perform a scored piece of music:
1) the way it was written
2) incorrectly
this slutty performance is not capturing the piece the way it was written. it's a "modern interpretation" that replaces the tortured soul of the piece with vapid and gratuitous sexuality. therefore, it's wrong. there's no further worthwhile debate on the point, unless you want to resort to the idiocy of "it's just your opinion".
it's not. and that decadent attitude is destroying our culture and our civilization.
out.
i agree with those arguing that she's butchering this. i've always interacted with the piece as a blaring romp, written by an emotionally insecure male that is releasing all of his anger and frustration. she's playing it in a soft and sensuous manner that invites a sultry lounge singer.
the notes are flawless, but there's just no rage or sadness or frustration in it.
deathtokoalas
i mean, maybe she's trying to sex it up. fine.
...but this really needs to be played by 40 year old virgins (ok, i'm exaggerating) to get the maximum feel out of it.
Tim
your understanding of the composer's work is clearly limited if you think anything he wrote is devoid of lust or passion. also, wang's artistic conviction and integrity are what make her performance so remarkable. interpreting a piece in a way that deviates from the norm (or, in this case, your personal preference) is not indicative of poor musicianship.
deathtokoalas
did i not point out that she played the piece flawlessly? but if you understand where the piece is coming from, and all the self-doubt and insecurity attached to it, you'll realize she's completely missing the point.
i mean, if i want to listen to shmaltzy, upper class nonsense i'll go listen to mozart or shostakovich or something. what makes rachmaninov special is the social anxiety in the writing. you take that away, and it's just another delve into aristocratic masturbation. there's plenty of that for those that want it, without needing to ruin that which stands away from it.
i kind of held back a little bit initially, but does she look to you like somebody that has ever experienced the kind of shit rachmaninov went through? young, beautiful, rich. she'd need a brain transplant to get her mind around this. it would be remarkable if she did understand this emotionally, that is as something more than notes on a page - which she does clearly understand quite well.
Vlad
eugh...welcome to music, blessed art it is, where each comes with their own interpretation.
deathtokoalas
this is scored music, not jazz. personal contributions should be kept to an absolute minimum. the performer is a worthless intermediary between my ears and the composer's mind - a necessary evil. i don't care what she thinks.
Vlad
Scored music is still subject to interpretation (not talking about improvisation). Any two people will feel to play the same piece differently
deathtokoalas
completely wrong liberal bullshit. if i want to listen to yuja wang, i'll listen to one of her compositions. i'm here to listen to rachmaninov. the moment she brings her individuality into the process is the moment she completely fucks up. you need to get your head out of this relativistic gallow before it comes down. there are correct and incorrect ways to play a piece.
i don't want to continue this into perpetuity, so i'm just going to be clear about the non-relativistic reality of things before i close off further comments.
there are two ways to perform a scored piece of music:
1) the way it was written
2) incorrectly
this slutty performance is not capturing the piece the way it was written. it's a "modern interpretation" that replaces the tortured soul of the piece with vapid and gratuitous sexuality. therefore, it's wrong. there's no further worthwhile debate on the point, unless you want to resort to the idiocy of "it's just your opinion".
it's not. and that decadent attitude is destroying our culture and our civilization.
out.
deathtokoalas
this was really a turning point in belew's career, and i think it's pretty literally a turning point. he seems to be contemplating suicide after what he's interpreting as a failed solo career (although he directed bowie tours and fronted king crimson, which few would interpret as particularly failed, even if his solo records weren't selling - and for the good reason that they really weren't very good, and he didn't have the sex appeal that bowie and byrne required to sell their own garbage), but choosing instead to resign himself to something a little more low key. with that resignation came a lot more free thinking and a higher sense of artistic individuality. his best work follows from after this point.
a similar idea is put forward in 'under the radar', but it's a little less dramatic.
9rugbyroy
I agree but his music is great ,and the radio and what they think is great is a narrow and closed minded and repetitive idea of what is talent! Compare Belew to musicians on american idol!!! ( REALLY)!!!!
deathtokoalas
i present no argument, but i'm trying to get a psychoanalysis in, and belew doesn't seem to have come to terms with this until later in life. you also have to keep in mind that while mainstream music was bad in the 80s, and a bit better in the 90s, it really hit new lows in the 00s that nobody living through the 70s could have possibly predicted. i mean, the groups belew was involved with were all successful...it's not such a stretch to expect the same level of success on solo projects (well, maybe not bowie, who was a cultural icon as much as he was a musician, but certainly king crimson or talking heads). you used to be able to turn the radio on and hear some decent music. that's the world belew lived in.
jayrobb9
I don't think your reading of the song is unfair. Belew did a number of songs throughout his solo career where he seemed rather puzzled by his own inability to 'make it big'. Oh Daddy is one song that comes immediately to mind. Of course, we don't know the man, so who is to say. And I'm sure 99% of people who have ever picked up a guitar would kill to have had a career like that of Belew. But it's entirely possible he wanted to hit big as a solo artist as a personal validation, but he never even really came close, sadly.
this was really a turning point in belew's career, and i think it's pretty literally a turning point. he seems to be contemplating suicide after what he's interpreting as a failed solo career (although he directed bowie tours and fronted king crimson, which few would interpret as particularly failed, even if his solo records weren't selling - and for the good reason that they really weren't very good, and he didn't have the sex appeal that bowie and byrne required to sell their own garbage), but choosing instead to resign himself to something a little more low key. with that resignation came a lot more free thinking and a higher sense of artistic individuality. his best work follows from after this point.
a similar idea is put forward in 'under the radar', but it's a little less dramatic.
9rugbyroy
I agree but his music is great ,and the radio and what they think is great is a narrow and closed minded and repetitive idea of what is talent! Compare Belew to musicians on american idol!!! ( REALLY)!!!!
deathtokoalas
i present no argument, but i'm trying to get a psychoanalysis in, and belew doesn't seem to have come to terms with this until later in life. you also have to keep in mind that while mainstream music was bad in the 80s, and a bit better in the 90s, it really hit new lows in the 00s that nobody living through the 70s could have possibly predicted. i mean, the groups belew was involved with were all successful...it's not such a stretch to expect the same level of success on solo projects (well, maybe not bowie, who was a cultural icon as much as he was a musician, but certainly king crimson or talking heads). you used to be able to turn the radio on and hear some decent music. that's the world belew lived in.
jayrobb9
I don't think your reading of the song is unfair. Belew did a number of songs throughout his solo career where he seemed rather puzzled by his own inability to 'make it big'. Oh Daddy is one song that comes immediately to mind. Of course, we don't know the man, so who is to say. And I'm sure 99% of people who have ever picked up a guitar would kill to have had a career like that of Belew. But it's entirely possible he wanted to hit big as a solo artist as a personal validation, but he never even really came close, sadly.
deathtokoalas
classic record, but not quite a benchmark disc. just a bit of a shame about that anticlimactic ending....
Oziel Esparza
The climaxes on the first and third track are amazing, and even goodbye desolate railyard has a good intro but the choir is so underwhelming. They don't even seem to appear much on this record other than the first and last part of the last track
deathtokoalas
i don't want to pigeonhole this band to the crescendos, as i'd likely get a fish thrown at me next time i see them. the process of escaping the post-rock label was something they seem to have felt very strongly about. and i suppose it required some experiments that are arguably still ongoing. i mean, some of the best moments on their more recent discs are tied into a more conventional epic or even "alternative" rock style structure. they're an effective rock band when they want to be. they're more than a crescendo. but, for a few years in the mid 00s they seemed to want to diversify with these delves into folk, and they just often came off as flat in the flow of the disc. i think it's partly because the vocal content that he tended to attach to these rawer points is often kind of only relevant in the band's world. it's one thing to moan over a folk tune, it's another thing to moan irrelevantly over a folk tune. so, it's not the end of the last track that i find is a bit tedious, but the beginning of it. i think we do all get a little lost sometimes, and there's some power in the drawn down arrangement. but the eulogy to the railroad tracks, as arranged for atonal singer and ukelele, is just kind of bordering on the realms of bad taste. and, after 40 whatever minutes of brilliance, it's a cringey transition. but, i mean, the disc, as a whole, is a remarkable accomplishment. i don't really want to take much away from it. it's just those few minutes in there that necessitate it's fall from near perfection to mere excellence.
classic record, but not quite a benchmark disc. just a bit of a shame about that anticlimactic ending....
Oziel Esparza
The climaxes on the first and third track are amazing, and even goodbye desolate railyard has a good intro but the choir is so underwhelming. They don't even seem to appear much on this record other than the first and last part of the last track
deathtokoalas
i don't want to pigeonhole this band to the crescendos, as i'd likely get a fish thrown at me next time i see them. the process of escaping the post-rock label was something they seem to have felt very strongly about. and i suppose it required some experiments that are arguably still ongoing. i mean, some of the best moments on their more recent discs are tied into a more conventional epic or even "alternative" rock style structure. they're an effective rock band when they want to be. they're more than a crescendo. but, for a few years in the mid 00s they seemed to want to diversify with these delves into folk, and they just often came off as flat in the flow of the disc. i think it's partly because the vocal content that he tended to attach to these rawer points is often kind of only relevant in the band's world. it's one thing to moan over a folk tune, it's another thing to moan irrelevantly over a folk tune. so, it's not the end of the last track that i find is a bit tedious, but the beginning of it. i think we do all get a little lost sometimes, and there's some power in the drawn down arrangement. but the eulogy to the railroad tracks, as arranged for atonal singer and ukelele, is just kind of bordering on the realms of bad taste. and, after 40 whatever minutes of brilliance, it's a cringey transition. but, i mean, the disc, as a whole, is a remarkable accomplishment. i don't really want to take much away from it. it's just those few minutes in there that necessitate it's fall from near perfection to mere excellence.
you want to know why we can't have another cold war? because i can't find any decent recordings of rachmaninov. no, i don't want to listen to some asian child prodigy that can hit the notes but has no emotional investment because she lacks the maturity. i don't want to compete over who can do it better, either.
the best version i've heard of the second piano concerto (by far) is by the soviet orchestra, which i found as an import from france (you can keep your freedom fries) in a second hand store several years ago. it's nowhere to be found online. and, it's not hard to guess why. instead, we have versions by west germans, koreans, jews from chicago...WESTERN VERSIONS....
none of them compare to the soviet version.
what is important in life is not which set of bankers controls which oil rig. what is important is the ability to listen to high quality renditions of universally recognized russian classics. likewise, russians have an inalienable right to access american renditions of american jazz.
"we have bitches brew, too. dmitri play trumpet through superior delay system. better quality big muff for vladimir's guitar."
it's not the same, dammit.
we need to put this into perspective before we revert back to that fucking bullshit all over again.
the best version i've heard of the second piano concerto (by far) is by the soviet orchestra, which i found as an import from france (you can keep your freedom fries) in a second hand store several years ago. it's nowhere to be found online. and, it's not hard to guess why. instead, we have versions by west germans, koreans, jews from chicago...WESTERN VERSIONS....
none of them compare to the soviet version.
what is important in life is not which set of bankers controls which oil rig. what is important is the ability to listen to high quality renditions of universally recognized russian classics. likewise, russians have an inalienable right to access american renditions of american jazz.
"we have bitches brew, too. dmitri play trumpet through superior delay system. better quality big muff for vladimir's guitar."
it's not the same, dammit.
we need to put this into perspective before we revert back to that fucking bullshit all over again.
rando
In my opinion, it was Fripp, who changed and developed Belew's guitar style and technique this way. This video basically shows, what guitar techniques and what playstyle you had to have, when wanted to be in King Crimson.
deathtokoalas
belew picked a lot up from fripp, but he never lost his more playful style - and it's something fripp desperately needed to counter his medieval dour. the biggest give away that it's belew rather than fripp is the presence of anything that contradicts the structure of the piece - be it a double time lick, an unexpected syncopation, etc. i love fripp, but the truth is that the man ticks like a clock.
In my opinion, it was Fripp, who changed and developed Belew's guitar style and technique this way. This video basically shows, what guitar techniques and what playstyle you had to have, when wanted to be in King Crimson.
deathtokoalas
belew picked a lot up from fripp, but he never lost his more playful style - and it's something fripp desperately needed to counter his medieval dour. the biggest give away that it's belew rather than fripp is the presence of anything that contradicts the structure of the piece - be it a double time lick, an unexpected syncopation, etc. i love fripp, but the truth is that the man ticks like a clock.
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