francezka
im catholic and in the bible it says that being gay is a sin. i do NOT believe that. it says that god made man and female so they could be together. but god made humans. he planted the concept of being gay in our human minds

Alejandrina
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11 NIV)

deathtokoalas
that's a wonky translation - the idea of "homosexuality" did not exist at the time of paul's writings.

http://www.inherit-the-kingdom.org/bible/arsenokoites.html

francezka
i said i DONT believe that being gay is a sin. i dont believe you get to choose it either. God created you how you are. if he didnt like who you are why would he create you? youre created for a reason.

deathtokoalas
the calvinists (and offshoots) are a little weird on this point, but most christians would argue that god creates you with free will and you have the choice to follow him or not. why would he create gay people and then taunt them? i dunno. seems kind of sadistic. then again, so is flooding the world, isn't it?

this idea of free will is largely what underlies the idea that homosexuality is a choice (i don't accept the genetic arguments, but i think it's oversimplifying it to suggest it's as simple as choosing to be or not to be gay).

i'm just pointing out that it's a weird argument from a christian perspective, or much of any kind of religious perspective. i'm not really aware of a religion that assigns creation with that much actual design inherent in it. the german indigenous religions had an idea of fate assigned to them, but they were not so tied to it so as to have it determine sexual preference.

most religions begin with a set of rules and give adherents the choice to follow them or not - so long as they're aware of the consequences (ie eternal damnation, or getting stuck in the wheel, or whatever).

i think this is more leaning towards like parmenides or something.

i don't think your view is obscure in our society, though, and it maybe says something about the world we live in.

past cultures and civilizations looked to the unknown to understand why there is catastrophe in the world, because catastrophe was their daily reality. we look to the unknown to explain why there is harmony - because it is what we know, with our absurd wealth firewalled behind three oceans and an arsenal of nuclear weapons.

it's a better vision, i'll grant you that.

Alejandrina
Yeah Ik we are called to love them. I never said we should disown them and it obviously was in the time of Paul otherwise it wouldn't be in the Bible!

francezka
well i am truly 100% catholic. but if being gay was a sin, why would god create the concept of it? that would be so pointless. EVERYTHING has a point to it. why would it happen if there was no point to it??

deathtokoalas
again: have you considered that the point is to punish it?

'cause that's what catholics actually think.

i'd really suggest looking into calvinism, i think it's closer to what you're thinking.

to clarify...

catholics think it's a sin. if you're taking a different approach, you're breaking with catholicism right there. so, from a catholic perspective, "why does homosexuality exist?" is the same question as "why does sin exist?".

catholicism would not provide a one-sentence response for that, but it reduces to the whole original sin thing with the fallen nature and the temptation of evil. again, this goes back to free will and choice. but, why does god give us the choice in the first place? there's story after story about this in the bible, and it comes down to a series of tests. god puts all kind of roadblocks in front of you on your way to eternal salvation, to make sure you make the right choice. gay? wrong choice, hell..

that's not me talking, that's what catholicism says: homosexuals are people that make a choice to be sinful.

calvinism takes a different approach altogether in assigning you salvation or damnation from the point you're conceived. while catholicism would not argue god made you gay, calvinism would argue god makes you gay - and then condemns you for it. so, the answer in calvinism is that god made you gay so that you can go to hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. that's not a gay-specific thing, it's general across all the different types of sin. it's very weird in terms of christianity, because it rejects the idea of forgiveness.

neither are really what you want to hear, though, which is "god made you gay, so god must approve it". if that's what you want to hear, you need to look at a different religion than christianity. unfortunately, i don't have any suggestions - i don't think one exists.

Gabrielle
Our God would never plant this kind of evil in our head. Our God is perfect and we humans always expect a flaw in everything, plus satan does everything the opposite as God does so when God says to multiply satan wants death. I am trying to not attack but when i see God's children say such things like "being gay is okay" is is very painful for me to watch.

deathtokoalas
is it so painful that it makes you want to just end it all, gabrielle?

Bethany
and God loves everybody and God made everything happen for a reason

deathtokoalas
again: false. x. fail.

unless you're a calvinist, in which case it's half true: god doesn't love everybody, but god does make everything happen for a reason.

Caoimhe
If being gay was  choice the no one would want to be tortured or bullied because they were gay plus it ll depends on who you love

deathtokoalas
so, being an atheist must not be a choice either, then.

Caoimhe
what atheists aren't bullied... But if they were not as bad as gays HOWEVER that is you religion what you WANT to believe in that IS a choice. For example: (I'll use beverages as my example) you can have 2 choices of drinks you can choose juice or water (as in religion) but you need to have water in your life and you cannot replace it with anything else (like your sexuality which you are stuck with) which some people like/enjoy their sexuality

deathtokoalas
religionists have killed millions of atheists over many centuries, often by giving them the simple choice of repent or be burned.

so, if your argument is that nobody would choose persecution over maintaining a belief system, i think you need to look at history a little more closely.

Caoimhe
don't tell me to look at history more closely I know my history but I wasn't talking about atheists get killed I was talking about gays, YOU brought up the subject. Atheists are grown people they choose their lifestyle and religions you cannot be born a religion and cannot change it it's what you believe so the people that died chose to believe that way which caused their deaths

deathtokoalas
wow. we've got a real smart one here.

i know a waste of time when i see it. if you'd like to explain to me that you understand my response, we can continue the discussion.

Caoimhe
WOAH what was with the insult?

deathtokoalas
you're having a lot of difficulty following a simple discussion. now, can you explain to me what i said, or not?

Caoimhe
we are talking about homosexuals here not mainly on religion (and I know from the video that the guy was talking about had been biased by religion)

deathtokoalas
remember: the point of contention is whether homosexuality is a choice or not.

Caoimhe
dude/chick (I don't know what you are) you don't even know me how can you say I'm having difficulty understanding what you said, I'm just giving my opinions on what you said, you don't have to be a cyber jerk because I'm just participating in the argument/conversation

yes that is what I said we are talking about homosexuals

deathtokoalas
right. so, you stated (in a jumbled syntax) that homosexuality can't be a choice because nobody would choose to be persecuted. are you honestly that clueless, or do you realize that it's an absurd argument?

Caoimhe
you have no idea what homosexuals go through you cannot call me clueless unless you are one and you understand your lifestyle and know that you cannot change it.

deathtokoalas
ok. so the question is if you can change it or not. can you tell me that you understand that this is the point of debate and not an established truth?

Caoimhe
I completely understand that you are all debating whether homosexuality is a characteristic of whether you can change or not and I have stated that you CANNOT change it, if I made you confused by my statements, then I apologise but you cannot change your sexuality no matter what it's just how we work with love

deathtokoalas
you haven't explained why you think this, and your statement is consequently invalid.

Caoimhe
I HAVE!!! MY FIRST COMMENT SAYS HOW I THINK HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE OR NOT AND THEN YOU BROUGHT FRICKIN ATHEISTS INTO THE SUBJECT

deathtokoalas
the reason presented in your first comment was demonstrated to be idiotic.

Caoimhe
how was it idiotic?

Explain to me how it was idiotic you complete cyber stranger, tell me how it was idiotic because obviously you seem to know me so well, so tell me SPECIFICALLY how my comment was idiotic wise one instead of swaying to a different topic like religion, tell me wise one how it was stupid

deathtokoalas
i already explained this, and you weren't able to follow it.

you're going to have to learn to back up your opinions at some point. but an individual on the internet can only do so much to correct a broken school system. you have to take that initiative yourself.

---

John Paul
ACTUALLY science has proven to being gay is a birth thing see when a women is pregnant we all start as a female egg its it when the DNA wants to decide to make it a male or keep as a female (thats usually why in rare case a man/woman is born with a vagina or both)  anyways during that process of turning the baby a male sometimes the immune system doesn't recognize what the foreign object is so wight blood cells attack the fetus and if that happens the hormones go all whack feminizing the fetus and its a boy who feels like a girl i don't to much detail cause this is already really long and your probably tired of reading this 

NG Sync
wtf?

Mercedes Dawn
Accutaly we start as sperm.

John Paul
lol ya that to but the egg is always a female until the DNA wants to change it

Aaliyah J
Scienceness

Pretty Little Liars
That's not necessarily what I've seen. The only experiments that I know about show that it could be about the amount of testosterone (I think) the baby is exposed to, or something along those lines. I'm sure it'll be a while before we know for sure the science behind it.

deathtokoalas
right, but if you think about that for a second it doesn't make any sense as a general marker for orientation. what the studies suggest (and i should be clear that they only refer to men, i was being a little liberal in my interpretation, previously) is that there may be a genetic marker for "queenie" type queer dudes that may have something to do with testosterone/estrogen levels. men have estrogen, and women have testosterone. the suggestion is that the homosexuality may be the result of an imbalance there, and that may be driven genetically.

but you've surely met gay men that are not "queenie" and that you'd basically have no idea are gay unless they've told you. further, i know quite a few dudes that have the "queenie" personality (and probably have the genes) but are not attracted to men. so, maybe they found the genetic marker for the "queenie" personality, but that's not the same thing as finding the gay gene.

again: the right way to read these studies is probably that the hormonal imbalance produces the "queenie" personality which, in the presence of various social indicators (perhaps including greater social identification with "girl things"), might induce the homosexual preference.

Mackenzie Jay
I do agree with you on the science. However, the science does not have any effect on our emotions. Psychology? Maybe. But not emotions.

deathtokoalas
your emotions are chemical reactions...

Rachelle Kwon
I'm pretty sure men have testosterones? I don't know I could be wrong

deathtokoalas
that's right. the meaning of the sentence is that both genders have both sex hormones, in differing quantities. estrogen production in men is essential, but is going to vary by individual (as insulin or any other hormone - indeed, testosterone - does).

Sarah Elizabeth
Those are all valid scientific points, but that has to do with gender identity, not sexual orientation. They are two completely different categories not to be confused.

deathtokoalas
i think you're right, but the research, itself, has made this error - and the idea of the "gay gene" relies on this error.