this is so blatantly punk music! what's with the metal categorization? after psalm 69, sure. but not this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9FbBy31yDo
Dust Devil
whether its metal or not is debatable ( it is ) but referring to it as punk , well that's just funny as all hell and for the record Burning Inside (pre-Pslam) is mind bending metal...in its era
deathtokoalas
burning inside is basically a sampled ramones riff, slowed down a little and "scooped" in the eq, with a killing joke type drum beat. the chorus actually sounds quite a bit like husker du (or even nirvana).
the lyrics are anti-oppressive, anti-political, pro-anarchist - not satanic or paganist or whatever else. there's no question that it's at least an ideological punk tune, insofar as there was a punk ideology (and there was...) and definitely not connected to the culture of metal.
al & paul were hanging out with jello biafra and skinny puppy around this period, not slayer and metallica.
you can laugh if you want, but it's true. it's punk rock...
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deathtokoalas
what i'm getting at is that the idea of "industrial metal" doesn't really hold up well. just about everything labelled industrial metal before about 92 is totally punk rock in scope, from the nature of the guitar work to the lyrical themes.
the weird thing is that "industrial metal" is almost an oxymoron, whereas "industrial punk" is basically a redundancy. yet, the former is the term that's always used.
i'm going to spin the discussion around a little: how is this metal, when you realize it's 1988? what other metal bands explored similar themes or sounded similarly?
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deathtokoalas
manson was legitimately "metal". godflesh was as well. and i guess they both built their sound up on top of ministry, and neither were thematically at all similar. the thing is that that's a retroactive definition. i mean, you'd might as well call the beatles metal because they wrote helter skelter, but that's blatantly silly.
so, how does the record itself explore the musical or thematic ideas that encapsulate what was called "metal" in the mid to late 80s?
Aroldo Araújo
really hard to classify l.o.r.a.h as metal, save for perhaps deity and the missing. the sheer amount of harsh guitars in the next album, though, may fit the description. I cannot see thieves or burning inside as not being somehow metallic, yet never believe has much of an ebm sound, heavy as it my be. I really don't know. all I can say is it's heavy and very aggressive, much in line with killing joke, only amped up some notches. before psalm, there was basically no guitar solo, but that's only one side to it. I just don't know. I guess ministry is some kind of killing joke outspring that took a lot of meths. that description fits me well enough.
deathtokoalas
but, if your argument is that it's a more aggressive killing joke (i think they also wrote better hooks than killing joke), it follows that it's an outgrowth of punk. post-punk, in some way.
my point is just that i'd like to stop hearing this term "industrial metal", unless it's actually applied correctly. this was a long time ago, now. and people that are looking for industrial/metal hybrids are looking for something very different (and a little later) than people that are looking for the original industrial/punk sound - both in terms of how it sounds, and in terms of what it's articulating.
shag stars
Have you ever heard Thrash metal?
deathtokoalas
unfortunately, yes. but this isn't that, either. after this, ok. but not this...
Fragmenta Official
You're kind of right, but look at Ministry's discography like a journey. Land Of Rape And Honey was definitely a step in the right direction. They got more metal as time went on starting out not metal at all (With Sympathy) to slightly edgier and darker electronic music (Twitch) finally incorporating some heavy guitars on LORAH, making that the core of the sound for The Mind with some more metallic riffs in songs like Thieves which was fully realized on Psalm 69, the most metal influenced album they put out by that point in time, aided by the fact they had Mike Scaccia from Rigor Mortis on guitar. Things get a bit murky from there.
deathtokoalas
well, yeah. i think it's broadly acknowledged that the classic ministry period ends with filth pig. those are the records people really care about.
