it might sound outrageous to the average rock fan that does not know a music note from a hockey stick, but what's being expressed in this video is accurate. you could maybe compare ginger to a phil collins or a billy cobham, but moon and bonham are really amateurish punks by comparison.
Andy Thomas
Phil Collins?!?!? Isn't he some retired actor? Who lives in Switzerland for tax purposes! Billy Cobham was truly gifted and wouldn't be too happy to be mentioned in the same breath as the Collins monster!
deathtokoalas
as i'm sure you're well aware, phil collins was amongst the most talented drummers of his generation. in addition to his work with genesis from 1970 to 1975, his work with brand x also showcases his drumming skills.
IamUncledeuce
That's a bit strong.... but Baker is right. Clapton was right on in his assessment of Baker. Baker's jazz stuff is really good. The disappointment for me was that Baker wasn't to received Cream royalties... what a total rip. Sad really.
Andy Thomas
I'm with you. It should have been more equal. But lots of bands had the same problem. The Who are the classic example. Townshend earned shedloads more than the others because of his publishing. Its the way of the world I'm afraid.
daz samuels
He didn't get royalties because he didn't write the songs. Correct me if I wrong.
Uncle Deuce
You are correct. But some bands split up all monies equally. Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix drummer) and Noel Redding died almost penniless and Hendrix rather depended on Mitchells drum style. Noel Redding is arguably the touring bassist and earned scale. Mitchell earned scale as well. As Copeland comments that writers and lyricists make royalties, arrangers don't earn anything. The Doors, split everything evenly, Morrison insisted on it. It is not unheard of to split profits equally. The Beatles didn't split equally, but they did divide to a formula.
deathtokoalas
yeah. the way "writing" is defined in pop music is basically a lot of nonsense. neither clapton nor bruce wrote the drum parts, but that's not legally important. it really should be.
Andy Thomas
You make a very good point!
daz samuels
The argument rightly or wrongly could be ' would these songs have made LESS money with a different drummer ?'.
deathtokoalas
i'd hazard a guess that ginger sold roughly 10x as many records as bruce did. but, cream was clapton. the rhythm section wouldn't have mattered a whole lot to much of anybody, really, so long as it was "good".
but i don't think that's the right question. the idea that ginger didn't contribute to the writing process is really a lot of bollocks. i mean, listen to white room or sunshine of your love and tell me he doesn't deserve a writing credit. it's silliness.
daz samuels
Your probably right, it's tit for tat anyway. They were a great group. And they must have all influenced the writing, so yeah. Isn't it funny that in the sixties so many British bands in the rock blues pop sector wrote their own tracks.
Andy Thomas
No No No. Any rhythm section wouldn't have done at all! It was Bruce/Baker that made Cream different. More inventive. Bruce was a PROPER musician for a start. Not just a hippie with a Bass. Just as it was Moon that made The Who different. Can you imagine any other drummer of the '60s being in The Who? No. Neither can Kenny Jones!!
deathtokoalas
well, so many didn't, too.
the fairest thing would have been to split it four ways, and give clapton two shares for vocals/guitar. but, the rules come out of the classical era, when there was a strict separation between composers and performers. fuck, look at richard wright - forced to work as a "salaried musician" in a band that he practically defined the style for.
daz samuels
I was raised on Clapton and my father loves Cream and the sixties groups. He must gave all the original vinyls and he really rates what Clapton did with 'forever man' ,and from the cradle -the tribute album and all the live stuff claptons done in the last 20 years ,which is a classic and easily comparable musically to the cream years and derek and the dominos. I've no idea what Baker has done since -I should check that out but EC still rules probably more so than any other white blues musician. U have to see the BB King/ Clapton performance 'the thrill is gone' they did at the White House in 99'- very cool. I think he might have another really good 5 years doing live shows.
I know what you mean about Richard Wright dude. He got shafted.
PoeticJustice05
There's a difference between rock and jazz, obviously. I would take Bonzo over Cobham on a rock record any day, anytime, period. And I would take Cobham over just about anybody on a jazz record, any day, anytime, period. As for Ol' Phil? He was the best drummer Genesis ever had, but I wouldn't put him above Bonham in the rock realm, although prog is a bit of a different story.
deathtokoalas
clapton's really a bit of an ass if you look into some of the comments he's made. and, really, cream were probably the least inventive of the major 60s blues groups. they're mostly a singles act, really.
baker has done a lot of interesting "world" and "fusion" music. i'm more of a fan of his solo work than i am cream, actually. it's worth exploring, if you like the style.
Andy Thomas
Publishing law has nothing to do with the Classical Era. The great composers composed on piano. How could Beethoven perform a symphony? Its Copyright law. You invent something, you own the rights to it! Simple! I think Richard Wright was ripped off by Gilmour And Mason too. Without him and Waters they could hardly have continued as Pink Floyd. Wright should have told them to fuck off!!
deathtokoalas
no, you've got it backwards, it's not about performing but about writing. it's the people that wrote the notes down on to paper (beethoven in the distant past, and jazz composers in the less distant past) that get the ownership. the performers in beethoven's orchestra got a pay check for their labour, as ginger did.
bruce was good at what he did, but he was hardly a unique talent. he'd certainly have to be replaced by somebody that knew what they were doing, but there wasn't really a deficit of groovy bassists in the mid 60s to choose from....
Brendan Morrison
Bonham over Billy Cobham on anything? Have you lost your mind? Absolute joke to even mention people like Bonham in the same breath as really great drummers like Elvin Jones, Jack de Johnette, Tony Williams, Billy Higgins, Steve Gadd, Dave Weckl, Vinnie Colaiuta, Antonio Sanchez.....there is a very long list.+PoeticJustice05 .
Andy Thomas
You tell 'em Brendan!
PoeticJustice05
Those are all great jazz guys, but I would take Bonham over all of them on a ROCK record, which is what I said before.Read my comment again, I gave Cobham his props, too. The fact that you don't acknowledge Bonham's greatness because he doesn't play jazz is enough for me to end this conversation now.
Brendan Morrison
Listen to Billy Cobham on Quadrant 4, more rock than jazz. Bonham wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with Zappa. Way inferior to Vinnie and even Terry Bozzio. I rest my case. Best wishes, my friend.
PoeticJustice05
I've listened to tons of Billy Cobham, from his stuff with Miles Davis to Mahavishnu Orchestra and his solo stuff. I know my drummers. I love Vinnie Colaiuta, he's my favorite drummer, but drumming is more than just about complexity. A solid groove tickles my fancy as much (if not more so) than a complex polymeter. The beauty of Bonham has nothing to do with complexity, and everything to do with feel. Rock is all about feel, so that's why I would choose him over Cobham on a rock record. It appears you like complexity, so this debate is pointless, and I hereby rest my case, as well.
deathtokoalas
i can't agree at all. rock drumming is about keeping a beat, mostly. it's power. groove. and, jazz drumming is all about feel, not technicality.
the truth is that the best rock drummers are jazz drummers, because they're able to get those subtle flourishes in, which is all about feeling that space in between the bars. moon was better at this than bonham, who was really hamfisted when it came to getting in the fills.
but i do suppose he was good at doing his caveman thumping, and it did create a defined style, for better or worse.
future drummers would find ways to combine these things together. this discussion is only really relevant in the context of the years 1970-1975. collins was also a good rock drummer, and you can't reasonably classify bruford either way. the next generation of drummers (dave lombardo, jimmy chamberlain, danny carey, etc) often switched back and forth in mid-song.
none of this is particularly relevant to my initial observation that ginger just flat out wasn't a basher.
PoeticJustice05
Keith Moon would've been kicked out of any other band besides The Who. He played way too much, relatively. For The Who he was perfect, just as Bonham was perfect for Led Zeppelin, and Ringo was perfect for The Beatles, and Mitch Mitchell was perfect for the Jimi Hendrix Experience, and Ginger was perfect for Cream. The best rock drummers are not necessarily jazz drummers, like Bonzo, Moony, Dave Grohl, etc. There are exceptions, like Ginger, Mitchell, Danny Carey, etc., but it's not a requirement. Filling up empty space and complexity is not needed in rock drumming unless the music allows for it. In The Who, the music was tailored for Moony's brand of drumming. In Tool, there are no lead instruments, so it allows Danny Carey to fill in a lot of space with his drums. They're also progressive, so he can incorporate lots of intricate rhythms and such. You can't do that with led Zeppelin songs, you just can't. I've listened to them a lot, I've played their songs, and you just can't play like Keith Moon on Zeppelin songs. You have to let the music breathe, and that's what Bonham did better than anybody. He could hammer out a groove like nobody's fucking business. But that doesn't mean he was a basher. He played with great dynamics, as well. I can't believe I'm trying to justify Bonham's greatness to drummers, but I'm trying. If you honestly can't see it, or rather, hear it, and feel it, then I feel bad for you, because if there's anything drummers should know better than any other instrument, it's that there is beauty in simplicity. Bonzo taught us that. Hell, Bernard Purdie taught us that, and S.P. Leary (played for Howlin Wolf), and Sam Lay (also played for Howlin Wolf), and Clyde Stubblefield (all drummers should know him). Jazz drummers get all the love, but people forget about the blues drummers, those guys who could lay down a fat groove and stay in the pocket. Hell, Bonzo was just a blues drummer on steroids. Anyways, I'm done trying to justify Bonzo's greatness. Any drummer who doesn't appreciate him should be ashamed of themselves.
