Saturday, October 18, 2014
you might want to take note of the fact that greg ginn has sounded like this since roughly 1990 before you freak out too hard. if you were expecting something different, you should have taken the five minutes to figure out what he's been doing for the last 25 years, and more than half of his music career.
is it good? well, you seem to be pissed off about it. you might take note of that, too.
i don't see any nazis, jocks, meatheads or converge fans in the audience. that's another upside to it.
now, what would you call it if he went back to doing hardcore at this stage, just for the money?
yeah. it's confusing. i know.
is it good? well, you seem to be pissed off about it. you might take note of that, too.
i don't see any nazis, jocks, meatheads or converge fans in the audience. that's another upside to it.
now, what would you call it if he went back to doing hardcore at this stage, just for the money?
yeah. it's confusing. i know.
deathtokoalas
he used to use a lot of jazz chords that are very unusual in a rock context. it's coming out of a melodic hardcore background. i suppose he also used to play the drums, but it's those jazz chords that made the foofighters sound like the foofighters. it's really a shame that he dropped that aspect of his sound. without that harmonic depth, what's left is generic and mostly pretty boring.
those chord voicings are pretty much the dominant factor that separates interesting hardcore (regardless of how much pop is worked into it) from boring hardcore. whether you're as poppy as it gets (foofighters, offspring, touche amore, sdre) or moving into abrasive territory (loma prieta, defeater), being able to get out of the power chord trap is the way out of being boring with the form. i mean, you're throwing these slabs of complex sound out there that move with the drums - you can be boring about it in sticking with 1/5 (sometimes three) or interesting about it in throwing in 9ths, 6ths, 7ths, 13ths, etc. i'm not oversimplifying, it really is that easy. grohl actually legitimately used to be good at this. alas...
sounds crazy, i know. but hardcore at it's best is jazz. it's voice leading. ginn was on to something with that.
Ashwin Rao
I believe pre-nirvana he played with a hardcore punk band called Scream
deathtokoalas
yeah, but he was a giant ian mackaye fan. he actually even claims he was in the audience for the first rites of spring show. think bad brains and black flag for the jazz chords.
he used to use a lot of jazz chords that are very unusual in a rock context. it's coming out of a melodic hardcore background. i suppose he also used to play the drums, but it's those jazz chords that made the foofighters sound like the foofighters. it's really a shame that he dropped that aspect of his sound. without that harmonic depth, what's left is generic and mostly pretty boring.
those chord voicings are pretty much the dominant factor that separates interesting hardcore (regardless of how much pop is worked into it) from boring hardcore. whether you're as poppy as it gets (foofighters, offspring, touche amore, sdre) or moving into abrasive territory (loma prieta, defeater), being able to get out of the power chord trap is the way out of being boring with the form. i mean, you're throwing these slabs of complex sound out there that move with the drums - you can be boring about it in sticking with 1/5 (sometimes three) or interesting about it in throwing in 9ths, 6ths, 7ths, 13ths, etc. i'm not oversimplifying, it really is that easy. grohl actually legitimately used to be good at this. alas...
sounds crazy, i know. but hardcore at it's best is jazz. it's voice leading. ginn was on to something with that.
Ashwin Rao
I believe pre-nirvana he played with a hardcore punk band called Scream
deathtokoalas
yeah, but he was a giant ian mackaye fan. he actually even claims he was in the audience for the first rites of spring show. think bad brains and black flag for the jazz chords.
deathtokoalas
i can hear a bit of sabbath and steppenwolf and the like, but it really sounds more like yes or elp and ultimately belongs in the same genre as dream theatre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFhqCXl5jb0
JD Turner
Especially in Zombie Queen... You can definitely hear Black Sabbath in it.
Shiteatercrapsuck
Very much like Blue Oyster Cult as well.
garolonlied
I also hear clear King Diamond's influences. P.S. WTF is wrong with koalas, pandas are the ones that must be obliterated.
deathtokoalas
it's not meant to be taken literally in the sense of exterminating koalas. biodiversity is positive. rather, it's meant to imply death to all that which is cute and cuddly. it's an old handle that was mostly reacting to twee culture.
also, what i was trying to get across is that this has it's genealogy in progressive rock.
Yeheah
Dream Theater?
Hahaha, are you on drugs, woman?
deathtokoalas
not today. but the yes influence (it may be via some 80s acts i'm not familiar with) is so dominant that they really do belong more in that category.
to be more specific, it's that operatic synth-based-ness that is shared, but dream theatre stands out as being particularly prog.
the point i'm getting at is that any kids enjoying this aren't going to find that in sabbath or steppenwolf or any other proto-metal. they will find it in early prog. i'm more inclined towards crimson or genesis myself, but yes and elp are better comparisons to this.
and in that sense it draws some pretty strong parallels to dream theatre, even if the conceptual aspect is pretty different
Yeheah
Sorry, still can't see it.
deathtokoalas
i mean, yes could hold a riff alright. elp, less so. it's more the singer that's an acquired taste - one i've never personally been able to get much into. but, anderson's not that different, stylistically, than ozzy, either. if you're citing steppenwolf and zeppelin and sabbath than the high pitch vocals come packaged with it, and yes actually sort of fit in.
garolonlied
Are you french? Since you write Dream Theatre instead of Theater.
deathtokoalas
close. canadian.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
theatre is actually the british spelling. being canadian, i spell things like they do there.
theatre.
neighbour.
favourite.
etc.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
well, i'm mildly french canadian. 1/16th. my father spoke french as a first language. i spoke it for a bit as a child but have forgotten essentially all of it, as it fell into disuse once i went to school.
so, i could have said i was quebecois; i've identified that way in the past, and many people have previously made the assumption. i tend not to anymore as i've become more aware of my larger ancestry, which is mostly not french. north americans of non-puritan descent tend to have difficulty identifying with a single nationality. i have ancestors in well over a dozen countries. that's pretty normal around here.
i actually think it was a reasonable question, if perhaps a tad irrelevant and mildly invasive. the british spelling of theatre does come via french/latin (although it's a greek word).
Rizzo Fox
I hear some rammstein
garolonlied
Now that you say it... it's pretty obvious.
deathtokoalas
i can't really comment on rammstein, because i think the only rammstein i've ever heard was on the lost highway soundtrack and i don't even really remember what it sounded like. were they something like a watered down kmfdm?
regardless, it doesn't really help kids looking for influences.
garolonlied
They are more like an indus band that have an impressive baritone singer. And catchy riffs in the Rob Zombie fashion.
deathtokoalas
i have to admit that i've heard basically nothing from rob zombie after astrocreep, as well. i like his earlier work, but i get the feeling it doesn't compare well. that description sounds roughly like watered down kmfdm to me, though...
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
i actually programmed those tracks off the soundtrack, which is one of my favourite discs of the period. was not at all impressed. i dig industrial, but i'm more of a punk and connect to it more through that angle. i've never heard an attempt to merge industrial with metal that didn't make me snicker...
Vegan Veracity
After their first two albums, they become more Neue Deutsche Hart.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
i've never seen that term before, but a google search leads me to believe that it means watered down kmfdm.
anything that tries to use the term 'industrial' after the death of dwayne goettel is self-parody. the whole genre died when he did.
garolonlied
Well, referring to Rammstein as a "watered down" version of a "Ministry like band" is pretty minimalist.
deathtokoalas
i never said anything about ministry, and i have to reiterate that i've really barely heard any rammstein, but none of the descriptions bandied around here sound like they describe ministry, who were cyber punk to the core, very well.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
the best industrial was all before 1995. there really hasn't been anything worth mentioning since. the following are the essential/key records in the genre
- skinny puppy: last rights, too dark park, vivisectvi
- download: furnace, eyes of stanley pain
- ministry: land of rape & honey, the mind is a terrible thing to taste
- nin: broken, fixed, downward spiral, pretty hate machine
- foetus: deaf, ache, hole, nail, thaw
- coil: horse rotorvator, love's secret domain
- einsturzuende neubauten: kollaps, haus der luege, tabula rasa
i don't think i've missed anything. the rest is superfluous.
i can hear a bit of sabbath and steppenwolf and the like, but it really sounds more like yes or elp and ultimately belongs in the same genre as dream theatre.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFhqCXl5jb0
Especially in Zombie Queen... You can definitely hear Black Sabbath in it.
Shiteatercrapsuck
Very much like Blue Oyster Cult as well.
garolonlied
I also hear clear King Diamond's influences. P.S. WTF is wrong with koalas, pandas are the ones that must be obliterated.
deathtokoalas
it's not meant to be taken literally in the sense of exterminating koalas. biodiversity is positive. rather, it's meant to imply death to all that which is cute and cuddly. it's an old handle that was mostly reacting to twee culture.
also, what i was trying to get across is that this has it's genealogy in progressive rock.
Yeheah
Dream Theater?
Hahaha, are you on drugs, woman?
deathtokoalas
not today. but the yes influence (it may be via some 80s acts i'm not familiar with) is so dominant that they really do belong more in that category.
to be more specific, it's that operatic synth-based-ness that is shared, but dream theatre stands out as being particularly prog.
the point i'm getting at is that any kids enjoying this aren't going to find that in sabbath or steppenwolf or any other proto-metal. they will find it in early prog. i'm more inclined towards crimson or genesis myself, but yes and elp are better comparisons to this.
and in that sense it draws some pretty strong parallels to dream theatre, even if the conceptual aspect is pretty different
Yeheah
Sorry, still can't see it.
deathtokoalas
i mean, yes could hold a riff alright. elp, less so. it's more the singer that's an acquired taste - one i've never personally been able to get much into. but, anderson's not that different, stylistically, than ozzy, either. if you're citing steppenwolf and zeppelin and sabbath than the high pitch vocals come packaged with it, and yes actually sort of fit in.
garolonlied
Are you french? Since you write Dream Theatre instead of Theater.
deathtokoalas
close. canadian.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
theatre is actually the british spelling. being canadian, i spell things like they do there.
theatre.
neighbour.
favourite.
etc.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
well, i'm mildly french canadian. 1/16th. my father spoke french as a first language. i spoke it for a bit as a child but have forgotten essentially all of it, as it fell into disuse once i went to school.
so, i could have said i was quebecois; i've identified that way in the past, and many people have previously made the assumption. i tend not to anymore as i've become more aware of my larger ancestry, which is mostly not french. north americans of non-puritan descent tend to have difficulty identifying with a single nationality. i have ancestors in well over a dozen countries. that's pretty normal around here.
i actually think it was a reasonable question, if perhaps a tad irrelevant and mildly invasive. the british spelling of theatre does come via french/latin (although it's a greek word).
Rizzo Fox
I hear some rammstein
garolonlied
Now that you say it... it's pretty obvious.
deathtokoalas
i can't really comment on rammstein, because i think the only rammstein i've ever heard was on the lost highway soundtrack and i don't even really remember what it sounded like. were they something like a watered down kmfdm?
regardless, it doesn't really help kids looking for influences.
garolonlied
They are more like an indus band that have an impressive baritone singer. And catchy riffs in the Rob Zombie fashion.
deathtokoalas
i have to admit that i've heard basically nothing from rob zombie after astrocreep, as well. i like his earlier work, but i get the feeling it doesn't compare well. that description sounds roughly like watered down kmfdm to me, though...
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
i actually programmed those tracks off the soundtrack, which is one of my favourite discs of the period. was not at all impressed. i dig industrial, but i'm more of a punk and connect to it more through that angle. i've never heard an attempt to merge industrial with metal that didn't make me snicker...
Vegan Veracity
After their first two albums, they become more Neue Deutsche Hart.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
i've never seen that term before, but a google search leads me to believe that it means watered down kmfdm.
anything that tries to use the term 'industrial' after the death of dwayne goettel is self-parody. the whole genre died when he did.
garolonlied
Well, referring to Rammstein as a "watered down" version of a "Ministry like band" is pretty minimalist.
deathtokoalas
i never said anything about ministry, and i have to reiterate that i've really barely heard any rammstein, but none of the descriptions bandied around here sound like they describe ministry, who were cyber punk to the core, very well.
(deleted post)
deathtokoalas
the best industrial was all before 1995. there really hasn't been anything worth mentioning since. the following are the essential/key records in the genre
- skinny puppy: last rights, too dark park, vivisectvi
- download: furnace, eyes of stanley pain
- ministry: land of rape & honey, the mind is a terrible thing to taste
- nin: broken, fixed, downward spiral, pretty hate machine
- foetus: deaf, ache, hole, nail, thaw
- coil: horse rotorvator, love's secret domain
- einsturzuende neubauten: kollaps, haus der luege, tabula rasa
i don't think i've missed anything. the rest is superfluous.
Chrystle Ayer
This was gorgeous! Thanks so much for uploading,@Kademan! What else of Philip Glass does anyone recommend? I'm unfamiliar with him.
deathtokoalas
i think you need to be very careful with glass. some of it is really moving, while large amounts sort of run on a treadmill. he talks so much about tonal freedom, but often seems caged within his so-called revolution.
a lot of people will suggest his bloated 70s pieces. i can't concur. he honed in a little in the 80s, but it wasn't until the 90s that he really became a fully coherent composer. there's a record with shankar called 'passages' that is quite gorgeous, and both explores indian classical music and electronic music (in addition to the dark gothic stuff). he also released a few symphonies in the 90s that present his ideas in a more concise and coherent manner than any of his month long operas ever did. two & three, specifically.
i'd also suggest the truman show over the hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4WlNj1TTqA
kademan13
Oh man calm down death koala. This isn't your blog.
deathtokoalas
all the world's a blog...
vermeer5
That's just silly. Glass works within a form, much like Feldman's lush minimalism or Adam's reiterations. Koyaanisqatsi is unique in Glass' oeuvre in that the circumstances were so straightened that everything that wasn't necessary was pared out and it was created hand in hand with the cinematographer of the film over the course of several years.
deathtokoalas
i don't really disagree, but i don't see how you're addressing anything i said or how anything i said is "silly". if it's a question of what period glass was most concise in, it's clear that it's his work after koyaanisqatsi that is the answer.
it was very fashionable to be bloated and pretentious in the 70s, but it's something that is really contained to the period and that neither contemporary nor future audiences are going to interpret as much more than a chore, whether the topic is glass or stockhausen.
This was gorgeous! Thanks so much for uploading,@Kademan! What else of Philip Glass does anyone recommend? I'm unfamiliar with him.
deathtokoalas
i think you need to be very careful with glass. some of it is really moving, while large amounts sort of run on a treadmill. he talks so much about tonal freedom, but often seems caged within his so-called revolution.
a lot of people will suggest his bloated 70s pieces. i can't concur. he honed in a little in the 80s, but it wasn't until the 90s that he really became a fully coherent composer. there's a record with shankar called 'passages' that is quite gorgeous, and both explores indian classical music and electronic music (in addition to the dark gothic stuff). he also released a few symphonies in the 90s that present his ideas in a more concise and coherent manner than any of his month long operas ever did. two & three, specifically.
i'd also suggest the truman show over the hours.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4WlNj1TTqA
Oh man calm down death koala. This isn't your blog.
deathtokoalas
all the world's a blog...
vermeer5
That's just silly. Glass works within a form, much like Feldman's lush minimalism or Adam's reiterations. Koyaanisqatsi is unique in Glass' oeuvre in that the circumstances were so straightened that everything that wasn't necessary was pared out and it was created hand in hand with the cinematographer of the film over the course of several years.
deathtokoalas
i don't really disagree, but i don't see how you're addressing anything i said or how anything i said is "silly". if it's a question of what period glass was most concise in, it's clear that it's his work after koyaanisqatsi that is the answer.
it was very fashionable to be bloated and pretentious in the 70s, but it's something that is really contained to the period and that neither contemporary nor future audiences are going to interpret as much more than a chore, whether the topic is glass or stockhausen.
auticre
3:04 reminds 1:06 Grantz Graf - Autechre
deathtokoalas
yeah. i believe autechre sampled the track.
for historical purposes, the correct answer is that they borrowed and built upon ideas from each other.
mizquitl
Are you sure Autechre ever sampled anything...I would rather say they gave old richard a call and he send them the patches ;)
deathtokoalas
oh, i have no information about this, i've just always assumed it was a sample.
the story around bucephalus is kind of crazy, though, so it wouldn't be as easy as sending a patch. well, i suppose there's a "patch", but it's written in C. the bouncing ball is physically modeled.
3:04 reminds 1:06 Grantz Graf - Autechre
deathtokoalas
yeah. i believe autechre sampled the track.
for historical purposes, the correct answer is that they borrowed and built upon ideas from each other.
mizquitl
Are you sure Autechre ever sampled anything...I would rather say they gave old richard a call and he send them the patches ;)
deathtokoalas
oh, i have no information about this, i've just always assumed it was a sample.
the story around bucephalus is kind of crazy, though, so it wouldn't be as easy as sending a patch. well, i suppose there's a "patch", but it's written in C. the bouncing ball is physically modeled.
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