i'll be back tomorrow or monday.
http://phys.org/news/2014-01-reveals-methods-musicians-tempo.html
Saturday, February 8, 2014
deathtokoalas
for years, i've found them annoyingly sappy (the singer has the melodic sense of bon jovi doing a commercial for laundry detergent), but i'm forcing myself to listen a bit more closely tonight for research purposes and i'm starting to realize that it would be a lot less boring if it was simply played at twice the speed. maybe, through many years of emulation, the vocals have just lost their grating quality; now, it just seems really slow and super boring. i mean, i'm not particularly young, but i kind of feel like a kid listening to the sex pistols and interpreting it as old timey classic rock.
like, seriously - i had to check to see if the record was slowed down. (it is, but only by 6 seconds).
Orion Bixler
Wait a minute....are you saying this was just a phaze in your life that you chose to use as some way to identify where you would fit in? Sorry to say this but I still find this album as a very superb piece of work. I was in highschool when this came out and I come back to it thinking "geez... so very indie...like these guys impressed me with their indie that they pretty much out indied all other indie bands.lol!" In turn me coming back to this would only make me sound like a hipster because I'm not a hipsters because the irony in hipsters is what makes a hipster a hipster! Then again people who meet me in real life notice how laid back and not so hoity toity I really am.They would have me labeled as some one who listens to a lot of industrial,dark synth,agro tech,and definitely a lot of METAL! ;p
deathtokoalas
no. i was never able to enjoy this band or what it created. it sounded bad then, and sounds worse now. the late 90s for me were mostly about exploring industrial music from the 80s and contemporary math/post rock. i'm not really fashion oriented, but the fashions and trends of the 90s really offered nothing of interest to me - i was more interested in the 80s. but, in conjunction with that greater interest in the 80s, my tastes in more conventional rock music are roughly summarized as 'hardcore punk' and, so, i keep intersecting with it and keep scratching my head over how astoundingly over-rated it is.
it's just amazingly bad. it's trying to be melodic, yet isn't. it makes no attempt to explore any kind of worthwhile subject matter. the musicianship is so bad they should be embarrassed by this. so, it fails at being punk as badly as it fails at being pop, leaving nothing left except an advertising campaign full of hollow, trendy bullshit.
to an extent, i think the band might actually agree with me. they smashed this thing up for good reasons. but, the fans? and especially the really obsessed ones?
it's just....
???
Daniel Luke
So what you're basically saying is you'd prefer ATD-I if they played another style of music. Yeah, I get what you mean, I'd prefer Limp Bizkit if their sound was closer to Sunshine Pop.
Orion Bixler
ok....so what do you consider to be good music according to your standards?
Cantwait4sundaY
guys, taste in music is completely subjective. if he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. there is nothing wrong with that.
deathtokoalas
it's more about not understanding how this gets rated so highly. by any objective standard, with the possible exception of maybe the audacity of bothering with 90s afros, it's just really subpar. i don't expect quality to transfer to sales. it never has before and it's probably never going to. but i do expect better analysis from music critics. there's really no rational argument for the way these guys get eulogized.
Orion Bixler
Its obvious that this band had that indie sound. Of course! They won't sound like they were polished up in a studio with studio quality music.Then again the genre was more indie and less mainstream especially with the kiddos from back in the day who were more into extreme sports such as skating and bmx. I was there man! Like literally there when this stuff was becoming very popular.lol! Usually the skaters and bmx folks would be the one jamming this out way before it became popular. The preferred music obviously was that of bands that played this type of music....I listened to most of the music these bmx tricksters and skaters would listen to....I was definitely not fond of them.They sounded a lot less creative and a lot more repetitive. This was where ATDI stood out. They were that creative however not that well known amongst others who were into industrial,nu metal, and what ever the rock stations were playing during that time. Over the years people who liked ATDI would geek all over it and become instant fans. This was where I saw the line being drawn with other folks who were into rock,hard rock,alternative rock,industrial,etc.... They just didn't like ATDI... I'll tell you why. Indie either died down or perhaps turned into a hipsters thing as hipsters now a days adopted it. Then again from my own personal experience the folks like me who were digging the indie-ness just strayed away because we noticed the draw backs.flaws,and the repercussions it attracted.HIPSTERS! It wasn't INDIE anymore. lol! Their is another band by the name of Glass Jaw that was ALMOST as equally as popular but after their second album it wasn't as good as their debut album. I remember how kids would call MTV and brag so much about listening to Glass Jaw as they made their phone calls to a member of some lame band (I can't remember) many years ago. The lead singer of the band eventually rolled his eyes after hearing another person stating it in an email "i jam out to so and so...and I jam out to Glass Jaw." as if it was a badge to wear and symbolize that they were in.They were cool. *face palm* _____!!!!
deathtokoalas
i really don't understand how you can claim this is creative and not repetitive. that's what i'm getting at. those sorts of accolades are entirely unjustified for what is really a basic three-chord punk band with an awful singer and no thematic or conceptual basis. there's nothing special about this band at all. i mean, i like lots of three chord punk bands, but it's just about a political position and a catchy beat. i don't expect them to get these sorts of accolades for their songwriting. that this does and continues to just flabbergasts me.
it's also interesting to me that you're separating between these ross robinson acts, because they all sound the same to me. i mean, i don't see why glassjaw should be put in a different genre than limp bizkit. it's the same noisy garbage, made by the same production team. again, that just seems like marketing. a way to sell the same product to two demographics, by playing them off against each other.
i mean, i think what you're talking about regarding scene kids is probably accurate, and i can get my head around that. i don't care about scene kids. but acknowledging it was a trendy thing for a while isn't the same thing as writing it up as brilliant and putting it on this critical pedestal that is really just flat out laughable. they're average albums, at best, relative to their own genre. and i can't hear anything that they may have to offer to younger generations at all, except being where the mars volta came from.
Orion Bixler
By you simply putting Limp Bizkut along side with ATDI as both garbage just shows that you have specific tastes in music and it kinda irritates me because unlike most people who go around showing off how good certain songs are...You come here and pretty much bring the same annoyance with how much they suck according to your standards. Well pardon me but look how they got well known,how they ended up so popular,and how they ended up there with out having the intentions to get up there.I can only assume that is why the band broke up after their last album. The last album was more of a debut album than anything else because well... they were being sold pretty much everywhere and even their songs were being played on the radio. They were getting recognition and that is because once again... All my skater friends/bmx tricker pals from back in the late 90's and early 2000's were just into this genre of music. Now that we have all grown up,we pretty much strayed away from what used to be INDIE. My friends listen to underground rap,I listen to Metal,and a few of the other pals listen to a lot of ambient/electronic music.I definitely agree with how the late 90's seemed a lot more experimental but Limp Bizkut was no where near experimental. I can see why you would put those two bands side by side but Limp Bizkut was more Nu Metal and well as I said before ATDI is Indie and to be specific Indiepunk. Take note that the reason why I mentioned GlassJaw is because it fell in the same category of the most preferred music by the folks from my generation preferred to listen to. I can also throw in Tool,Deftones white pony,and A perfect Circle.Those bands were very much preferred as well.
deathtokoalas
well, i'm probably close to your age. i had some friends into atdi, and what they were into was the ross robinson sound not some abstraction of "indie rock". i was the kid into indie rock, which was a term that at the time applied more to bands like polvo, tortoise and mogwai. and sonic youth.
to be blunt, most of the people i know that got into atdi got into them because they were working with robinson. it was a process of following leads out of korn's production team. 'cause, at the core, they were fundamentally korn fans dabbling outwards. in the sense that my interests overlapped with theirs, tool was a better starting point for some of them (i consider tool more in a lineage from black flag, though, and mostly an arty punk band) and nine inch nails was a better starting point for the others (although every single one of the atdi fans i knew preferred manson to nin, that was another difference - the more nu metal oriented types were more into manson, whereas the more indie/math or even prog oriented types leaned towards reznor). it was actually pretty lonely being the only kid i knew of into indie rock like tortoise.
there are huge overlaps in the sound, from the drum attack to the guitar tone. it's not a coincidence that the same production team was behind korn, atdi, slipknot, glassjaw and a bunch of other similar sounding bands. rather, the reason they had a similar sound is that they had the same production team! and to suggest that some of what was labeled "post-hardcore" didn't have the business sense to realize nu metal was selling records is disingenuous. it's not just that they had same production team, it's that the bands knew that was where the money was. so, they worked with the producer that would provide them with the sound.
trying to split "post-hardcore" away from "nu metal" during this robinson dominated period is consequently splitting hairs in a way that only makes sense in marketing terms. it's the same sound, created by the same people.
that wasn't my intent behind the post, though. i'm not trying to present an end point of music analysis. i'm more commenting on the absurdity of this band's critical standing.
music critics provide an opinion, but it's an opinion rooted in something. that doesn't make it objective - two critics will and often do strongly disagree - but it presents an argument and tries to back it up. what i find astounding about this band is how universal the acclaim is. if you look at certain records by pink floyd or the beatles or (...) that are considered to be nearly flawless by nearly everybody, it's easy to hear the basis of the acclaim. this is forward thinking, creative music that has the ability to affect people both on an intellectual level and an emotional level. tersely put, it's "good music" and almost everybody agrees. some dissent exists, and that's what it is.
but i just can't grasp for a moment how atdi gets anywhere near that level of universality in acclaim it gets. i mean, some people are going to love it, and that's up to them. so, it seems reasonable to expect inflated reviews from certain places - including from the kids that lived and breathed it. but, the music is deeply flawed. i've pointed some of them out. so, where's the more balanced response? i'm just confounded by a lack of it.
there's lots of sacred cows out there that have had their backlashes. it's really long past the point that this is re-examined and re-interpreted in a historical context, rather than being understood purely as something that people that retroactively call themselves "indie" were into.
(pause)
i've closed this thread off because i don't have any interest in dealing with pretentious and arrogant atdi fans (who are the modern equivalent of 80s metal douches) hilariously trying to lecture me for the next ten years, but i just want to point out that (unlike most of them) i actually lived through this. i don't need to listen to some other record instead, they're all over-rated. they all suck. they all need to be re-evaluated and rejected by the younger generation as they redefine themselves in opposition to this.
i don't need to read a bunch of marketing propaganda - i'm explicitly rejecting those lies and replacing them with the truth that this band was a ross robinson project and built it's commercial success on the back of it's relationship to korn. if you were in a high school in the 90s, the korn kids and the rage kids and the atdi kids and the refused kids and the manson kids were in fact the same kids. you don't have to like that, but that's the historical reality that i experienced and you didn't, because you're not old enough. the marketing will never acknowledge this because the whole purpose of selling post-hardcore, rap-metal and nu-metal as different things (despite them being indistinguishable) was to saturate the market. and, i suspect the band would look back and complete agree with what i'm saying. it was one scene and it was driven by the biggest corporations that existed at the time. nothing indie about this at all...
this re-evaluation - and the truth that you've all been successfully tricked - is something that is inevitable, sooner or later. what i'm calling for is a quick re-evaluation, followed by swift cultural change.
'cause this sucks. no, i'm not old - i'm a few years younger than the band's most heavily targeted demographic. this is what i was supposed to listen to, but rejected - because it was corporate garbage. so, let's acknowledge that and leave this behind us as dad rock and move forwards.
thread dead.
for years, i've found them annoyingly sappy (the singer has the melodic sense of bon jovi doing a commercial for laundry detergent), but i'm forcing myself to listen a bit more closely tonight for research purposes and i'm starting to realize that it would be a lot less boring if it was simply played at twice the speed. maybe, through many years of emulation, the vocals have just lost their grating quality; now, it just seems really slow and super boring. i mean, i'm not particularly young, but i kind of feel like a kid listening to the sex pistols and interpreting it as old timey classic rock.
like, seriously - i had to check to see if the record was slowed down. (it is, but only by 6 seconds).
Orion Bixler
Wait a minute....are you saying this was just a phaze in your life that you chose to use as some way to identify where you would fit in? Sorry to say this but I still find this album as a very superb piece of work. I was in highschool when this came out and I come back to it thinking "geez... so very indie...like these guys impressed me with their indie that they pretty much out indied all other indie bands.lol!" In turn me coming back to this would only make me sound like a hipster because I'm not a hipsters because the irony in hipsters is what makes a hipster a hipster! Then again people who meet me in real life notice how laid back and not so hoity toity I really am.They would have me labeled as some one who listens to a lot of industrial,dark synth,agro tech,and definitely a lot of METAL! ;p
deathtokoalas
no. i was never able to enjoy this band or what it created. it sounded bad then, and sounds worse now. the late 90s for me were mostly about exploring industrial music from the 80s and contemporary math/post rock. i'm not really fashion oriented, but the fashions and trends of the 90s really offered nothing of interest to me - i was more interested in the 80s. but, in conjunction with that greater interest in the 80s, my tastes in more conventional rock music are roughly summarized as 'hardcore punk' and, so, i keep intersecting with it and keep scratching my head over how astoundingly over-rated it is.
it's just amazingly bad. it's trying to be melodic, yet isn't. it makes no attempt to explore any kind of worthwhile subject matter. the musicianship is so bad they should be embarrassed by this. so, it fails at being punk as badly as it fails at being pop, leaving nothing left except an advertising campaign full of hollow, trendy bullshit.
to an extent, i think the band might actually agree with me. they smashed this thing up for good reasons. but, the fans? and especially the really obsessed ones?
it's just....
???
Daniel Luke
So what you're basically saying is you'd prefer ATD-I if they played another style of music. Yeah, I get what you mean, I'd prefer Limp Bizkit if their sound was closer to Sunshine Pop.
Orion Bixler
ok....so what do you consider to be good music according to your standards?
Cantwait4sundaY
guys, taste in music is completely subjective. if he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. there is nothing wrong with that.
deathtokoalas
it's more about not understanding how this gets rated so highly. by any objective standard, with the possible exception of maybe the audacity of bothering with 90s afros, it's just really subpar. i don't expect quality to transfer to sales. it never has before and it's probably never going to. but i do expect better analysis from music critics. there's really no rational argument for the way these guys get eulogized.
Orion Bixler
Its obvious that this band had that indie sound. Of course! They won't sound like they were polished up in a studio with studio quality music.Then again the genre was more indie and less mainstream especially with the kiddos from back in the day who were more into extreme sports such as skating and bmx. I was there man! Like literally there when this stuff was becoming very popular.lol! Usually the skaters and bmx folks would be the one jamming this out way before it became popular. The preferred music obviously was that of bands that played this type of music....I listened to most of the music these bmx tricksters and skaters would listen to....I was definitely not fond of them.They sounded a lot less creative and a lot more repetitive. This was where ATDI stood out. They were that creative however not that well known amongst others who were into industrial,nu metal, and what ever the rock stations were playing during that time. Over the years people who liked ATDI would geek all over it and become instant fans. This was where I saw the line being drawn with other folks who were into rock,hard rock,alternative rock,industrial,etc.... They just didn't like ATDI... I'll tell you why. Indie either died down or perhaps turned into a hipsters thing as hipsters now a days adopted it. Then again from my own personal experience the folks like me who were digging the indie-ness just strayed away because we noticed the draw backs.flaws,and the repercussions it attracted.HIPSTERS! It wasn't INDIE anymore. lol! Their is another band by the name of Glass Jaw that was ALMOST as equally as popular but after their second album it wasn't as good as their debut album. I remember how kids would call MTV and brag so much about listening to Glass Jaw as they made their phone calls to a member of some lame band (I can't remember) many years ago. The lead singer of the band eventually rolled his eyes after hearing another person stating it in an email "i jam out to so and so...and I jam out to Glass Jaw." as if it was a badge to wear and symbolize that they were in.They were cool. *face palm* _____!!!!
deathtokoalas
i really don't understand how you can claim this is creative and not repetitive. that's what i'm getting at. those sorts of accolades are entirely unjustified for what is really a basic three-chord punk band with an awful singer and no thematic or conceptual basis. there's nothing special about this band at all. i mean, i like lots of three chord punk bands, but it's just about a political position and a catchy beat. i don't expect them to get these sorts of accolades for their songwriting. that this does and continues to just flabbergasts me.
it's also interesting to me that you're separating between these ross robinson acts, because they all sound the same to me. i mean, i don't see why glassjaw should be put in a different genre than limp bizkit. it's the same noisy garbage, made by the same production team. again, that just seems like marketing. a way to sell the same product to two demographics, by playing them off against each other.
i mean, i think what you're talking about regarding scene kids is probably accurate, and i can get my head around that. i don't care about scene kids. but acknowledging it was a trendy thing for a while isn't the same thing as writing it up as brilliant and putting it on this critical pedestal that is really just flat out laughable. they're average albums, at best, relative to their own genre. and i can't hear anything that they may have to offer to younger generations at all, except being where the mars volta came from.
Orion Bixler
By you simply putting Limp Bizkut along side with ATDI as both garbage just shows that you have specific tastes in music and it kinda irritates me because unlike most people who go around showing off how good certain songs are...You come here and pretty much bring the same annoyance with how much they suck according to your standards. Well pardon me but look how they got well known,how they ended up so popular,and how they ended up there with out having the intentions to get up there.I can only assume that is why the band broke up after their last album. The last album was more of a debut album than anything else because well... they were being sold pretty much everywhere and even their songs were being played on the radio. They were getting recognition and that is because once again... All my skater friends/bmx tricker pals from back in the late 90's and early 2000's were just into this genre of music. Now that we have all grown up,we pretty much strayed away from what used to be INDIE. My friends listen to underground rap,I listen to Metal,and a few of the other pals listen to a lot of ambient/electronic music.I definitely agree with how the late 90's seemed a lot more experimental but Limp Bizkut was no where near experimental. I can see why you would put those two bands side by side but Limp Bizkut was more Nu Metal and well as I said before ATDI is Indie and to be specific Indiepunk. Take note that the reason why I mentioned GlassJaw is because it fell in the same category of the most preferred music by the folks from my generation preferred to listen to. I can also throw in Tool,Deftones white pony,and A perfect Circle.Those bands were very much preferred as well.
deathtokoalas
well, i'm probably close to your age. i had some friends into atdi, and what they were into was the ross robinson sound not some abstraction of "indie rock". i was the kid into indie rock, which was a term that at the time applied more to bands like polvo, tortoise and mogwai. and sonic youth.
to be blunt, most of the people i know that got into atdi got into them because they were working with robinson. it was a process of following leads out of korn's production team. 'cause, at the core, they were fundamentally korn fans dabbling outwards. in the sense that my interests overlapped with theirs, tool was a better starting point for some of them (i consider tool more in a lineage from black flag, though, and mostly an arty punk band) and nine inch nails was a better starting point for the others (although every single one of the atdi fans i knew preferred manson to nin, that was another difference - the more nu metal oriented types were more into manson, whereas the more indie/math or even prog oriented types leaned towards reznor). it was actually pretty lonely being the only kid i knew of into indie rock like tortoise.
there are huge overlaps in the sound, from the drum attack to the guitar tone. it's not a coincidence that the same production team was behind korn, atdi, slipknot, glassjaw and a bunch of other similar sounding bands. rather, the reason they had a similar sound is that they had the same production team! and to suggest that some of what was labeled "post-hardcore" didn't have the business sense to realize nu metal was selling records is disingenuous. it's not just that they had same production team, it's that the bands knew that was where the money was. so, they worked with the producer that would provide them with the sound.
trying to split "post-hardcore" away from "nu metal" during this robinson dominated period is consequently splitting hairs in a way that only makes sense in marketing terms. it's the same sound, created by the same people.
that wasn't my intent behind the post, though. i'm not trying to present an end point of music analysis. i'm more commenting on the absurdity of this band's critical standing.
music critics provide an opinion, but it's an opinion rooted in something. that doesn't make it objective - two critics will and often do strongly disagree - but it presents an argument and tries to back it up. what i find astounding about this band is how universal the acclaim is. if you look at certain records by pink floyd or the beatles or (...) that are considered to be nearly flawless by nearly everybody, it's easy to hear the basis of the acclaim. this is forward thinking, creative music that has the ability to affect people both on an intellectual level and an emotional level. tersely put, it's "good music" and almost everybody agrees. some dissent exists, and that's what it is.
but i just can't grasp for a moment how atdi gets anywhere near that level of universality in acclaim it gets. i mean, some people are going to love it, and that's up to them. so, it seems reasonable to expect inflated reviews from certain places - including from the kids that lived and breathed it. but, the music is deeply flawed. i've pointed some of them out. so, where's the more balanced response? i'm just confounded by a lack of it.
there's lots of sacred cows out there that have had their backlashes. it's really long past the point that this is re-examined and re-interpreted in a historical context, rather than being understood purely as something that people that retroactively call themselves "indie" were into.
(pause)
i've closed this thread off because i don't have any interest in dealing with pretentious and arrogant atdi fans (who are the modern equivalent of 80s metal douches) hilariously trying to lecture me for the next ten years, but i just want to point out that (unlike most of them) i actually lived through this. i don't need to listen to some other record instead, they're all over-rated. they all suck. they all need to be re-evaluated and rejected by the younger generation as they redefine themselves in opposition to this.
i don't need to read a bunch of marketing propaganda - i'm explicitly rejecting those lies and replacing them with the truth that this band was a ross robinson project and built it's commercial success on the back of it's relationship to korn. if you were in a high school in the 90s, the korn kids and the rage kids and the atdi kids and the refused kids and the manson kids were in fact the same kids. you don't have to like that, but that's the historical reality that i experienced and you didn't, because you're not old enough. the marketing will never acknowledge this because the whole purpose of selling post-hardcore, rap-metal and nu-metal as different things (despite them being indistinguishable) was to saturate the market. and, i suspect the band would look back and complete agree with what i'm saying. it was one scene and it was driven by the biggest corporations that existed at the time. nothing indie about this at all...
this re-evaluation - and the truth that you've all been successfully tricked - is something that is inevitable, sooner or later. what i'm calling for is a quick re-evaluation, followed by swift cultural change.
'cause this sucks. no, i'm not old - i'm a few years younger than the band's most heavily targeted demographic. this is what i was supposed to listen to, but rejected - because it was corporate garbage. so, let's acknowledge that and leave this behind us as dad rock and move forwards.
thread dead.
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